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  1. #661
    of Earth-1610 RockyBanks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylor51 View Post
    Listen all... I really don't know what happened. Amazon was having an epic comics sale and I needed another cheap book to qualify for free super shipping for my Ultimate Doomsday OHC and damn them, they suggested the Ultimatum OHC and I went for it. I told myself it was only because I "needed" it for completion's sake. I sat down to read it a couple of days ago, fully expecting to have my negative memories for it reaffirmed when I found myself enjoying it! Dangit! What did wyokid slip into my drink? >_>

    Anyway, I then spent the next few days expanding a critique that I wrote in notepad into a full blown essay. Would anyone be interested in me posting a MONSTROUS reevaluation presenting my feelings on the subject after a second read through some 4 years later?
    Dude, that's pretty much why we're here. Hit us with it.

    Spoilers: wyokid will proclaim ultimate victory at having converted another unsuspecting soul to Loebianism. At the mere mention of Wolverine's grisly death scene, Wolverine12 will fly into a rage, and probably cry some. Plawsky will take the middle road with the skill of a politician, admitting that he doesn't like Ultimatum but totally sees your point. And the rest of us will reply "Blech, what are you talking about?!?"


  2. #662
    Jer rocks! thecrimson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyBanks View Post
    Dude, that's pretty much why we're here. Hit us with it.

    Spoilers: wyokid will proclaim ultimate victory at having converted another unsuspecting soul to Loebianism. At the mere mention of Wolverine's grisly death scene, Wolverine12 will fly into a rage, and probably cry some. Plawsky will take the middle road with the skill of a politician, admitting that he doesn't like Ultimatum but totally sees your point. And the rest of us will reply "Blech, what are you talking about?!?"

    Ooh! How will I react?

    Also...how do you pronounce Loeb?
    Thank god comic fans are such a tiny little percentage of the audience needed for a successful film because apparently we not only hate fucking everything, we're willing to even pre-hate things...

  3. #663
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyBanks View Post
    Dude, that's pretty much why we're here. Hit us with it.

    Spoilers: wyokid will proclaim ultimate victory at having converted another unsuspecting soul to Loebianism. At the mere mention of Wolverine's grisly death scene, Wolverine12 will fly into a rage, and probably cry some. Plawsky will take the middle road with the skill of a politician, admitting that he doesn't like Ultimatum but totally sees your point. And the rest of us will reply "Blech, what are you talking about?!?"

    HEY!! I don't cry anymore, I'm a big boy now.
    1) Find a bad guy
    2) Be Wolverine
    Bring Back Ultimate Wolverine...again!

  4. #664
    Jer rocks! thecrimson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    HEY!! I don't cry anymore, I'm a big boy now.
    Do you need a tissue?
    Thank god comic fans are such a tiny little percentage of the audience needed for a successful film because apparently we not only hate fucking everything, we're willing to even pre-hate things...

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyBanks View Post
    Dude, that's pretty much why we're here. Hit us with it.

    Spoilers: wyokid will proclaim ultimate victory at having converted another unsuspecting soul to Loebianism. At the mere mention of Wolverine's grisly death scene, Wolverine12 will fly into a rage, and probably cry some. Plawsky will take the middle road with the skill of a politician, admitting that he doesn't like Ultimatum but totally sees your point. And the rest of us will reply "Blech, what are you talking about?!?"

    Woah there buddy. I'm not one to gloat...okay well sometimes but I try not to :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    HEY!! I don't cry anymore, I'm a big boy now.
    Dude, what are you talking about? You called me crying last night.

  6. #666
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    Dude, what are you talking about? You called me crying last night.
    You promised you wouldn't tell :(
    1) Find a bad guy
    2) Be Wolverine
    Bring Back Ultimate Wolverine...again!

  7. #667

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    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimson View Post
    Ooh! How will I react?

    Also...how do you pronounce Loeb?
    I go with Lobe, like earlobe. Plus Commissioner Loeb in Batman Begins is pronounced that way so I'm sticking with that =)

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    You promised you wouldn't tell :(
    Don't be boasting then!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyBanks View Post
    Dude, that's pretty much why we're here. Hit us with it.
    Haha, for sure. There's just been a BAZILLION discussions over this, so I wasn't sure if people'd roll their eyes at me or not lol.

    Some things I feel Ultimates 3 did well:
    -First of all: sexy, sexy, SEXY Joe Mad art. Man, I'd forgotten just how good Ultimates 3 looks

    -You know, Loeb catches a lot of flack for mis-characterizing Ultimate Universe characters as their Classic Marvel selves. I'll address that more thoroughly in detail later, but I've gotta say that I don't think people give him enough credit. You've got:
    1).Hawkeye hating the world and having a death wish, which I feel was a pretty valid character development in the wake of having his entire family killed in front of him
    2). Cap's "old fashioned fish out of water" characterization, which, while slightly one-dimensional, takes its cues directly from what Millar was doing with Cap in Ultimates 2
    3). Hank Pym's unappreciated/can't catch a break/right place-wrong time plot line is, again, right up Millar's alley while still having its own flavor
    4). The edgy team atmosphere/interpersonal relationships were preserved pretty well
    5). The Brotherhood was referenced specifically as a terrorist organization, all of which felt pretty continuous to me as I was reading

    -Magneto's relationship with his children was depicted well (and again, there were some good Ultimate War references peppered in there), and the dinosaur cover up was awesome!

    -Loeb's Savage Land Ultimization simultaneously respected UXM continuity and acknowledged Magneto's darker nature in the UU, and I think that Ultron's Ultimization was reasonable as a one off (much like Red Skull)

    I also feel like a lot of the criticisms that are usually leveled against the series don't really hold up to scrutiny. The following are the most glaring unjustified criticisms that came to mind, all of which I subscribed to until this last read through:

    -Thematic Departure From Complex, Politicized Military Conflicts:
    You know, I'm gonna put it out there that this was more Millar's fault than Loeb's. He's the one that eliminated the Ultimates' ties to SHIELD. I don't know where future writers were supposed to go but "standard" super hero antics. That said, while not a main plot point, the Ultimates still deal with PR angles under Loeb with the sex tape and worrying about the media catching wind of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witches awkward relationship (and later reference their independence from SHIELD during Ultimatum), so it's not like this aspect of Ultimates was just completely forgotten. Not to mention that the Ultimates still did "standard" super-heroics before U3 anyway (Ultimate War/Six, Power, etc) and Magneto+Brotherhood is definitely an Ultimates level threat. Was Ultimates 3 less substantial than its predecessors and/or a little mindless? Sure, but not necessarily in a bad way. Nothing wrong with a non-groundbreaking read if it still manages to entertain

    -De-Ultimizing Thor/Forcibly Introducing Classic Costumes In Ultimate Universe:
    Again, the genesis point here wasn't Loeb! Old English Thor started under Bendis in Ultimate Power. Honestly, I think that the lack of clear creative direction post-Millar was more to blame than Loeb's writing. I suppose you could argue that it was Loeb's responsibility to create one, but really... He was kinda just following along with what had been established by other writers. Thor embracing his godhood more overtly DOES follow from Ultimates 2 ending... Really, I'm just happy Hickman came in and championed the character again :). On another note... Let's be honest, Classic Mjolnir was probably an art mistake by Mad, and Loeb DID explain it later in story. I also think that sticking with the cinderblock style Mjolnir made Magneto's theft in Ultimatum that much more dramatic/impactful, and the existence of an Asgard forged Mjolnir led to cool things in Hickman's run (Modi and the Room Without Doors, anyone?). Same with Iron Man's Classic Armor popping up, since Finch drew it correctly in Ultimatum (I also happened to like his Mad's War Machine-esque stealth suit from the end conflict anyway =D), though Loeb DID de-Ultimize the "mission control" aspect of Iron Man's armor, which DOES bother me (he was, however, neither the first nor only offender of this crime =D)

    -Making Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch "In Love:"
    Honestly, back in the day this was probably my biggest beef with what Loeb was doing, but he still never explicitly shows anything happen on panel. I mean, sure, Wasp SAYS they're in love and Hawkeye expresses his disgust and Wolverine makes his cracks about what would have happened if he "hadn't interrupted" them in the Savage Land, but I still think it was supposed to be just an overprotective brother-sister thing that LOOKED really awkward. I emphatically believe that they weren't banging under Millar, and I actually don't think they were under Loeb anymore, either; their relationship was just majorly unconventional (since they were raised by Magneto in isolation from what's socially acceptable) and everyone jumped to their own conclusions. Their teammates gossiping about them actually keeps in line pretty well with the theme of internal strife among the Ultimates. Consequently, I'm really not offended by Spencer making Quicksilver fantasize about her in his run, since by that time Quicksilver had been reworked into a scheming evil maniac anyway and the overt manner in which Loeb's addressed their relationship DID offer a junction point to come to such a conclusion.

    Some things I feel Ultimatum did well:
    -Loeb wrote an EPIC evil Magneto story. He owns the entire world, realizes the pointlessness of his separatist doctrine and nukes human mutant-relations back to the Stone Age forever. The sheer scale of what he did was brilliant (flipped poles, suicide Madrox armies, killing Xavier/Wolverine, tidal waves, flash freezes, volcanoes, even Dormammu? Lol. Good times all around). Really, this might be one of my favorite evil Magneto stories of all time so far as concepts go. So far as events go, the no holds barred approach really makes things intense. The desperation of the heroes involved communicates pretty well as they scramble to mount a counter offensive. Between everything going wrong at the same time, the global devastation felt terrifyingly real

    -Amidst the carnage, two deaths stood out particularly well: Giant Man finally gets some redemption by sacrificing himself to take out the army of Suicide Madrox, and Wolverine takes it to the limit to ensure Magneto's death. Loeb really killed it in that scene, blasting Wolverine down to his skeleton, de-adamantiumizing him then atomizing his bones. That would pretty much be the only believeable way to kill off Wolverine

    Both series had their flaws, no doubt, but I look at most of the ones I wrote about to myself (poorly focused/underdeveloped subplots, pedestrian melodrama, half the cast accomplishing little more than serving as iconic wallpaper, suspect dialogue in parts, etc) and realize that they didn't really bother me as I was reading. Like, I recognized them as literary weaknesses, but was so captivated by the high octane epicness of it all that why Kazaar and Shanna were even involved became less important than the fact that tigers were mauling Sabertooth. Clearly Ultimatum was not nearly as cerebral an outing as Millar or Ellis' work, but Magneto and the scale of it all really shines through the fluff and event syndrome and I think that's probably what got me. "Rule of Cool" and all.

    Anyway. That's where I stand. Discuss :).
    Last edited by taylor51; 04-30-2012 at 03:07 PM.
    Marriage Era Spidey bashers are shameful opportunists (Like you REALLY didn't enjoy a single Spidey comic in 20 years)
    Conversely, BND haters REALLY need to get over their continuity elitism already

  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylor51 View Post
    -Making Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch "In Love:"
    Honestly, back in the day this was probably my biggest beef with what Loeb was doing, but he still never explicitly shows anything happen on panel. I mean, sure, Wasp SAYS they're in love and Hawkeye expresses his disgust and Wolverine makes his cracks about what would have happened if he "hadn't interrupted" them in the Savage Land, but I still think it was supposed to be just an overprotective brother-sister thing that LOOKED really awkward. I emphatically believe that they weren't banging under Millar, and I actually don't think they were under Loeb anymore, either; their relationship was just majorly unconventional (since they were raised by Magneto in isolation from what's socially acceptable) and everyone jumped to their own conclusions. Their teammates gossiping about them actually keeps in line pretty well with the theme of internal strife among the Ultimates
    You might want to read Ultimate Fallout 5 again.

  11. #671

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    Quote Originally Posted by sage6paths View Post
    You might want to read Ultimate Fallout 5 again.
    Lol. I actually had the following in my original draft at the end of that paragraph, but omitted it for the sake of relevance. That said...

    Consequently, I'm not really offended by Spencer making Quicksilver fantasize about her in his run, since by that time Quicksilver had been reworked into a scheming evil maniac anyway and Loeb's run DID offer a junction point to come to such a conclusion.
    Marriage Era Spidey bashers are shameful opportunists (Like you REALLY didn't enjoy a single Spidey comic in 20 years)
    Conversely, BND haters REALLY need to get over their continuity elitism already

  12. #672
    Jer rocks! thecrimson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylor51 View Post
    Haha, for sure. There's just been a BAZILLION discussions over this, so I wasn't sure if people'd roll their eyes at me or not lol.

    Some things I feel Ultimates 3 did well:
    -First of all: sexy, sexy, SEXY Joe Mad art. Man, I'd forgotten just how good Ultimates 3 looks

    -You know, Loeb catches a lot of flack for mis-characterizing Ultimate Universe characters as their Classic Marvel selves. I'll address that more thoroughly in detail later, but I've gotta say that I don't think people give him enough credit. You've got:
    1).Hawkeye hating the world and having a death wish, which I feel was a pretty valid character development in the wake of having his entire family killed in front of him
    2). Cap's "old fashioned fish out of water" characterization, which, while slightly one-dimensional, takes its cues directly from what Millar was doing with Cap in Ultimates 2
    3). Hank Pym's unappreciated/can't catch a break/right place-wrong time plot line is, again, right up Millar's alley while still having its own flavor
    4). The edgy team atmosphere/interpersonal relationships were preserved pretty well
    5). The Brotherhood was referenced specifically as a terrorist organization, all of which felt pretty continuous to me as I was reading

    -Magneto's relationship with his children was depicted well (and again, there were some good Ultimate War references peppered in there), and the dinosaur cover up was awesome!

    -Loeb's Savage Land Ultimization simultaneously respected UXM continuity and acknowledged Magneto's darker nature in the UU, and I think that Ultron's Ultimization was reasonable as a one off (much like Red Skull)

    I also feel like a lot of the criticisms that are usually leveled against the series don't really hold up to scrutiny. The following are the most glaring unjustified criticisms that came to mind, all of which I subscribed to until this last read through:

    -Thematic Departure From Complex, Politicized Military Conflicts:
    You know, I'm gonna put it out there that this was more Millar's fault than Loeb's. He's the one that eliminated the Ultimates' ties to SHIELD. I don't know where future writers were supposed to go but "standard" super hero antics. That said, while not a main plot point, the Ultimates still deal with PR angles under Loeb with the sex tape and worrying about the media catching wind of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witches awkward relationship (and later reference their independence from SHIELD during Ultimatum), so it's not like this aspect of Ultimates was just completely forgotten. Not to mention that the Ultimates still did "standard" super-heroics before U3 anyway (Ultimate War/Six, Power, etc) and Magneto+Brotherhood is definitely an Ultimates level threat. Was Ultimates 3 less substantial than its predecessors and/or a little mindless? Sure, but not necessarily in a bad way. Nothing wrong with a non-groundbreaking read if it still manages to entertain

    -De-Ultimizing Thor/Forcibly Introducing Classic Costumes In Ultimate Universe:
    Again, the genesis point here wasn't Loeb! Old English Thor started under Bendis in Ultimate Power. Honestly, I think that the lack of clear creative direction post-Millar was more to blame than Loeb's writing. I suppose you could argue that it was Loeb's responsibility to create one, but really... He was kinda just following along with what had been established by other writers. Thor embracing his godhood more overtly DOES follow from Ultimates 2 ending... Really, I'm just happy Hickman came in and championed the character again :). On another note... Let's be honest, Classic Mjolnir was probably an art mistake by Mad, and Loeb DID explain it later in story. I also think that sticking with the cinderblock style Mjolnir made Magneto's theft in Ultimatum that much more dramatic/impactful, and the existence of an Asgard forged Mjolnir led to cool things in Hickman's run (Modi and the Room Without Doors, anyone?). Same with Iron Man's Classic Armor popping up, since Finch drew it correctly in Ultimatum (I also happened to like his Mad's War Machine-esque stealth suit from the end conflict anyway =D), though Loeb DID de-Ultimize the "mission control" aspect of Iron Man's armor, which DOES bother me (he was, however, neither the first nor only offender of this crime =D)

    -Making Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch "In Love:"
    Honestly, back in the day this was probably my biggest beef with what Loeb was doing, but he still never explicitly shows anything happen on panel. I mean, sure, Wasp SAYS they're in love and Hawkeye expresses his disgust and Wolverine makes his cracks about what would have happened if he "hadn't interrupted" them in the Savage Land, but I still think it was supposed to be just an overprotective brother-sister thing that LOOKED really awkward. I emphatically believe that they weren't banging under Millar, and I actually don't think they were under Loeb anymore, either; their relationship was just majorly unconventional (since they were raised by Magneto in isolation from what's socially acceptable) and everyone jumped to their own conclusions. Their teammates gossiping about them actually keeps in line pretty well with the theme of internal strife among the Ultimates

    Some things I feel Ultimatum did well:
    -Loeb wrote an EPIC evil Magneto story. He owns the entire world, realizes the pointlessness of his separatist doctrine and nukes human mutant-relations back to the Stone Age forever. The sheer scale of what he did was brilliant (flipped poles, suicide Madrox armies, killing Xavier/Wolverine, tidal waves, flash freezes, volcanoes, even Dormammu? Lol. Good times all around). Really, this might be one of my favorite evil Magneto stories of all time so far as concepts go. So far as events go, the no holds barred approach really makes things intense. The desperation of the heroes involved communicates pretty well as they scramble to mount a counter offensive. Between everything going wrong at the same time, the global devastation felt terrifyingly real

    -Amidst the carnage, two deaths stood out particularly well: Giant Man finally gets some redemption by sacrificing himself to take out the army of Suicide Madrox, and Wolverine takes it to the limit to ensure Magneto's death. Loeb really killed it in that scene, blasting Wolverine down to his skeleton, de-adamantiumizing him then atomizing his bones. That would pretty much be the only believeable way to kill off Wolverine

    Both series had their flaws, no doubt, but I look at most of the ones I wrote about to myself (poorly focused/underdeveloped subplots, pedestrian melodrama, half the cast accomplishing little more than serving as iconic wallpaper, suspect dialogue in parts, etc) and realize that they didn't really bother me as I was reading. Like, I recognized them as literary weaknesses, but was so captivated by the high octane epicness of it all that why Kazaar and Shanna were even involved became less important than the fact that tigers were mauling Sabertooth. Clearly Ultimatum was not nearly as cerebral an outing as Millar or Ellis' work, but Magneto and the scale of it all really shines through the fluff and event syndrome and I think that's probably what got me. "Rule of Cool" and all.

    Anyway. That's where I stand. Discuss :).
    Well said, well said.

    But I also want to direct you to Sage's post above.
    Thank god comic fans are such a tiny little percentage of the audience needed for a successful film because apparently we not only hate fucking everything, we're willing to even pre-hate things...

  13. #673

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    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimson View Post
    Well said, well said.

    But I also want to direct you to Sage's post above.
    And I'll direct you to my response, which you probably missed while replying to mine . I'll edit my post so that future readers don't jump on the same thing lol.
    Marriage Era Spidey bashers are shameful opportunists (Like you REALLY didn't enjoy a single Spidey comic in 20 years)
    Conversely, BND haters REALLY need to get over their continuity elitism already

  14. #674
    Jer rocks! thecrimson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylor51 View Post
    And I'll direct you to my response, which you probably missed while replying to mine . I'll edit my post so that future readers don't jump on the same thing lol.
    Haha, I did miss your response.

    I think Quicksilver and his sis were like that from the get-go, hence that one creepy cover -_-.
    Thank god comic fans are such a tiny little percentage of the audience needed for a successful film because apparently we not only hate fucking everything, we're willing to even pre-hate things...

  15. #675

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    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimson View Post
    Haha, I did miss your response.

    I think Quicksilver and his sis were like that from the get-go, hence that one creepy cover -_-.
    See, that'll always be the discussion. I'd have to go through and re-read Millar's entire tenure on both UXM and Ultimates, but there were always a bunch of things that made me think the opposite. Wanda trying to seduce Cyclops and flirting with the Ultron come to mind immediately, and I'm sure if I looked I could find Pietro doing the same elsewhere. No doubt their relationship was weird and kinda made you feel uncomfortable as you were reading, but I always thought it was a by product of their abusive father. I even wanna say they said that somewhere, maybe in Ultimate War or something, but I may have come up with that on my own lol.

    Plus, that cover is blatantly obnoxious. Millar and Hitch were obviously trolling us lol.
    Marriage Era Spidey bashers are shameful opportunists (Like you REALLY didn't enjoy a single Spidey comic in 20 years)
    Conversely, BND haters REALLY need to get over their continuity elitism already

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