Comparing the Ultimates: Millar, Loeb, Hickman, Humphries

[Balfro]

And so begins my reign as photoshop king of the Ultimate Boards!

Yeah you wish...

[Munkiman]

This right here is my point. There is no REASON for it, it's WHY it got retconned. You're right it's not misogynistic, it's pointless and doesn't make either character, the heroes (the ones we are supposed to like) look good. SpamJan being beaten is misogynistic because it showed no evolution for her character. SpamBy the end she was just running back to Hank. Arguing that it is a character's flaw doesn't make it any less misogynistic.

It would be misogynistic if the abuse was treated as a good thing by the text. But, you know, it's not. At all.

I think it's worth noting, also, that Jan hits Hank back right after, and harder.

And of course it doesn't make either character look good. That's not the point of the scene. The point is to show that Hank is not a good person. And later reveal that Jan was not perfect as well, for letting this go on for so long, though obviously her issues aren't nearly as bad as Hank's. The characters are shown to be human and flawed, in the Mighty Marvel Manner.

Misogyny is a hatred of women, a belief that women are inherently lesser than men. If Ultimates was misogynistic, Janet would have been portrayed as deserving it. But while she's shown to have poor judgment for staying with Hank despite his abusive behavior, what he does to her is clearly shown and repeatedly stated to be absolutely wrong and inexcusable. That's not how misogyny works.

She was in a healthy sexual relationship with Thor. There is nothing wrong with that. Is there a point to it? No, but the only way that's offensive is if you strongly believe that you shouldn't have sex before marriage.

Did it make her grow as a character?

[wyokid]

It would be misogynistic if the abuse was treated as a good thing by the text. But, you know, it's not. At all.

I think it's worth noting, also, that Jan hits Hank back right after, and harder.

And of course it doesn't make either character look good. That's not the point of the scene. The point is to show that Hank is not a good person. And later reveal that Jan was not perfect as well, for letting this go on for so long, though obviously her issues aren't nearly as bad as Hank's. The characters are shown to be human and flawed, in the Mighty Marvel Manner.

Misogyny is a hatred of women, a belief that women are inherently lesser than men. If Ultimates was misogynistic, Janet would have been portrayed as deserving it. But while she's shown to have poor judgment for staying with Hank despite his abusive behavior, what he does to her is clearly shown and repeatedly stated to be absolutely wrong and inexcusable. That's not how misogyny works.

It doesn't matter if it is shown as a good thing or not because her character does not change because of it. That is why it is offensive.

Did it make her grow as a character?

As I stated, Spamthere was no point to it, but it wasn't offensive.

[Wolverine12]

This right here is my point. There is no REASON for it, it's WHY it got retconned. You're right it's not misogynistic, it's pointless and doesn't make either character, the heroes (the ones we are supposed to like) look good. SpamJan being beaten is misogynistic because it showed no evolution for her character. SpamBy the end she was just running back to Hank. Arguing that it is a character's flaw doesn't make it any less misogynistic.

There is a reason to it though. Wolverine's relationship with Jean is one of the most storied in all of comics, be it in 616 or Ultimate. Look at all the tension and drama that happened because of the conflict b/t Scott and Logan. Logan tried to kill Scott, almost succeeded, Scott still forgave him and let him back on the X-Men. All because of Jean Grey.

As for Jan and Hank, domestic abuse is a real life issue. It unfortunately happens but how you deal with it is what defines you. Jan stood up to Hank after she was hurt and left him. Only after being with Steve for awhile(who bored her and was old enough to be her dad) did she want to return to Hank. Nothing in those events is misogyny, two men fighting for the affections of a woman doesn't show hate towards women. Once again it created a conflict in the story that was drawn upon years later. Steve and Hank never got along after that.

I'll say this, Loeb having Jan be a team leader who is completely ignored by all her subordinates is completely misogynistic. In essence Loeb is basically saying that women can't possibly be good leaders and that men would do better to go their own path. Loeb followed this up by having Wasp being cannibalized and killed off panel. Once again showing a complete lack of respect for any and all accomplishments that Jan had done prior to Loeb penning her.

Monica Chang was completely wronged by Nick Fury as written by Mark Millar. Still she went on to be a loving mother and daughter who now leads a black ops ultimate squad and is capable of taking down Captain America if not in hand to hand combat then tactically which one would argue is even more impressive given Cap's tactical abilities. This clearly shows Millar's respect for women as far as being a hero and strategist is concerned.

[thecrimson]

It doesn't matter if it is shown as a good thing or not because her character does not change because of it. That is why it is offensive.



As I stated, Spamthere was no point to it, but it wasn't offensive.

I'm not seeing how it's offensive.

[wyokid]

There is a reason to it though. SpamWolverine's relationship with Jean is one of the most storied in all of comics, be it in 616 or Ultimate. SpamLook at all the tension and drama that happened because of the conflict b/t Scott and Logan. SpamLogan tried to kill Scott, almost succeeded, Scott still forgave him and let him back on the X-Men. SpamAll because of Jean Grey.

Nowhere did you argue why she needed to be underage.

My god, that was the first X-Men book,SpamMark Millar is why I don't like the X-Men.

As for Jan and Hank, domestic abuse is a real life issue. SpamIt unfortunately happens but how you deal with it is what defines you. SpamJan stood up to Hank after she was hurt and left him. SpamOnly after being with Steve for awhile(who bored her and was old enough to be her dad) did she want to return to Hank. SpamNothing in those events is misogyny, two men fighting for the affections of a woman doesn't show hate towards women. SpamOnce again it created a conflict in the story that was drawn upon years later. SpamSteve and Hank never got along after that.

Yes but how did Jan evolve? This isn't about Hank or Cap, it's about Jan. Bringing up that it happens in real life doesn't mean it's not also misogynistic in real life as well.

I'll say this, Loeb having Jan be a team leader who is completely ignored by all her subordinates is completely misogynistic. SpamIn essence Loeb is basically saying that women can't possibly be good leaders and that men would do better to go their own path. SpamLoeb followed this up by having Wasp being cannibalized and killed off panel. SpamOnce again showing a complete lack of respect for any and all accomplishments that Jan had done prior to Loeb penning her.

Two examples. Got anymore from Loeb's other work? I got a whole list for Millar.

Monica Chang was completely wronged by Nick Fury as written by Mark Millar.SpamStill she went on to be a loving mother and daughter who now leads a black ops ultimate squad and is capable of taking down Captain America if not in hand to hand combat then tactically which one would argue is even more impressive given Cap's tactical abilities. SpamThis clearly shows Millar's respect for women as far as being a hero and strategist is concerned.

Read Ultimate Avengers vs New Ultimates again, she gets taken down in one punch and does nothing else through the battle. Carol Danvers only role in that was being kidnapped, Spamgetting hit by a car, and then resigning because a many tricked her into taking all of the blame.

[Munkiman]

It doesn't matter if it is shown as a good thing or not because her character does not change because of it. That is why it is offensive.



As I stated, Spamthere was no point to it, but it wasn't offensive.

You do realize what you just wrote, right? You said that something Millar wrote is offensive because it doesn't change the character, and then on the very next line you said that something Loeb wrote doesn't change the character, but isn't offensive.

...would you care to rephrase that?

Nowhere did you argue why she needed to be underage.

My god, that was the first X-Men book,SpamMark Millar is why I don't like the X-Men.

Is 19 underage where you come from?

Yes but how did Jan evolve? This isn't about Hank or Cap, it's about Jan. Bringing up that it happens in real life doesn't mean it's not also misogynistic in real life as well.

We all agree that there is a misogynistic action taking place in the book. That's completely different from the book itself being misogynistic.

Would you say that a book is condoning murder if someone is killed in it, even though the book clearly portrays said murder as a bad thing?

[Plawsky]

Seeing how we both agree that the scene was misogynistic, we could just call it one thing. However this isn't the only time Millar has been misogynistic with his writing.

I wouldn't say the scene is misogynistic at all. The act itself might be, but the scene - as laid out by the writer - was not. He might as well have said "domestic abuse happens - it's bad." If you honestly think that Millar supports wife beating because of that scene, then you are reading it wrong. Jan is the good guy. She leaves Hank. Steve kicks his ass. He's kicked off the public team.

Yes, she ends up back with Hank, but that doesn't mean she didn't grow from the situation. After being with Cap, she realized that she and Hank are still in love, despite their obviously dysfunctional relationship. She has proven that she can be a strong woman on her own. And Hank has grown a lot, too. Their relationship is not the same as it once was.

She was in a healthy sexual relationship with Thor. There is nothing wrong with that. Is there a point to it? No, but the only way that's offensive is if you strongly believe that you shouldn't have sex before marriage.

But a lot of what she talks about is just wanting to get Thor in bed. She is a sex crazed young girl, ready to throw herself at a celebrity at the first chance. It's no different than the relationship that she had with Hank Pym in Ultimates 2.

Two examples. Got anymore from Loeb's other work? I got a whole list for Millar.

I'm really not sure why I have to keep mentioning this, but we're not talking about other books. We're COMPARING THE ULTIMATES, as stated in the thread title. None of us really care what happened in Millar's other books. And like I've mentioned before, Wanted and Kick-Ass are both meant to be offensive. That's the whole point of those books.

But this is about the Ultimate Universe.

[wyokid]

But a lot of what she talks about is just wanting to get Thor in bed. She is a sex crazed young girl, ready to throw herself at a celebrity at the first chance. It's no different than the relationship that she had with Hank Pym in Ultimates 2.

She is a teenager, how were you when you were a teenager? Horny I bet.

I wouldn't say the scene is misogynistic at all. The act itself might be, but the scene - as laid out by the writer - was not. He might as well have said "domestic abuse happens - it's bad." If you honestly think that Millar supports wife beating because of that scene, then you are reading it wrong. Jan is the good guy. She leaves Hank. Steve kicks his ass. He's kicked off the public team.

Yes, she ends up back with Hank, but that doesn't mean she didn't grow from the situation. After being with Cap, she realized that she and Hank are still in love, despite their obviously dysfunctional relationship. She has proven that she can be a strong woman on her own. And Hank has grown a lot, too. Their relationship is not the same as it once was.

I'm really not sure why I have to keep mentioning this, but we're not talking about other books. We're COMPARING THE ULTIMATES, as stated in the thread title. None of us really care what happened in Millar's other books. And like I've mentioned before, Wanted and Kick-Ass are both meant to be offensive. That's the whole point of those books.

But this is about the Ultimate Universe.

Then this conversation is over, you can't show why this is part of Millar's misogynistic viewpoints without giving examples of misogyny from his other work, otherwise it will only be a couple occurrences here and there, just how Loeb's Ultimate Marvel work was.

[thecrimson]

She is a teenager, how were you when you were a teenager? Horny I bet.



Then this conversation is over, you can't show why this is part of Millar's misogynistic viewpoints without giving examples of misogyny from his other work, otherwise it will only be a couple occurrences here and there, just how Loeb's Ultimate Marvel work was.

Jean was 19. There's a teen in that. Can't she be horny, too?

Why don't you make sense?

Why can't the writer have a scene about misogyny without being misogynistic?

[Plawsky]

She is a teenager, how were you when you were a teenager? Horny I bet.

So what again was your problem with Jean Grey?

Then this conversation is over, you can't show why this is part of Millar's misogynistic viewpoints without giving examples of misogyny from his other work, otherwise it will only be a couple occurrences here and there, just how Loeb's Ultimate Marvel work was.

If they're not misogynistic within the context of the Ultimates, then I don't see what the problem is. Yes, he's written some controversial material before, but that has nothing to do with the Ultimates. But if you really need to bring up your list, go ahead. We've already pointed out how out of context and nitpicky it is.

[wyokid]

So what again was your problem with Jean Grey?

Wasn't she retconned into being 19?

[Munkiman]

Wasn't she retconned into being 19?

Ultimate X-Men #2, page 7, panel 1: Beast: "You mean the guy who can lobotomize a Sentinel single-handedly fumbles his lines in the presence of a skinny little nineteen year-old redhead?"

Unless they went back and changed it for the trade, she was 19 from the start.

[Plawsky]

Wasn't she retconned into being 19?

I think, but it doesn't really change anything. Does her age change her motivations at all? The only thing it changes is the legality of her relationship with Wolverine. You said it yourself - teenagers are horny. I don't really see what difference two years makes. Maybe it makes a difference for Wolverine's character, but Wolverine is a killer of extremely questionable morale - do you really think age matters to him?

And do you know who broke off that relationship? Jean did. She left Wolverine. You seem to be forgetting that.

[wyokid]

I think, but it doesn't really change anything. Does her age change her motivations at all? The only thing it changes is the legality of her relationship with Wolverine. You said it yourself - teenagers are horny. I don't really see what difference two years makes. Maybe it makes a difference for Wolverine's character, but Wolverine is a killer of extremely questionable morale - do you really think age matters to him?

And do you know who broke off that relationship? Jean did. She left Wolverine. You seem to be forgetting that.

What matters is that these are the HEROES, they are supposed to be LIKED. I don't know about you, but I tend to not root for the sex offender.