Comparing the Ultimates: Millar, Loeb, Hickman, Humphries

[Plawsky]

Sure, sure. You just forgot didn't you. lol

I forget nothing.

[wyokid]

I'm genuinely confused now. You're praising Loeb for his deconstruction, but saying he shouldn't have done it. Which one is it? Or is there something I'm missing?

He shouldn't have, but I'm glad he did.

No one said he doesn't know how to write heroes. But he didn't write them in Ultimates. If that's Millar's biggest flaw, then that inherently makes Ultimates 3 extremely flawed. Millar wasn't trying to write a paragon of virtue, boy scout, Superman-trope superhero book with Ultimates. It's no different than Alan Moore with Watchmen. These were not meant to be flawless role models. I'll admit that these version of characters can be a turnoff if you're looking for that type of book. But you're faulting him for not doing something that he wasn't meaning to do. That would be like criticizing School of Rock for being a bad horror movie. You've been defending the Ultimate Spider-man Cartoon, saying "it's meant for kids" and that wanting it to be more mature is an invalid complaint. Well that's exactly what you're doing here. You want Millar's Ultimates to be something that it was never pretending to be. If you want an Avengers book about perfect heroes, read some old Avengers comics.

Have I ever mentioned that I am not a fan of Watchmen? When the Ultimate universe began it was modernizing the 616 stories, in other words, Millar SHOULD have been writing heroes.

And looking at Millar's other Ultimate work, there are plenty of heroes. The Fantastic Four fit your description. Several of the X-Men characters are heroes, while others are morally grey (something that was extended through Bendis, Vaughan, and Kirkman's runs as well). And he's written heroes in other works, too, but this isn't about that.

Yes, but this is a discussion on Ultimates, so it's not important.

What are you referring to here?

When Cap dismisses the line as something you say in the heat of the moment.

That pretty much leaves Spider-man, Batman, and George Washington alone as heroes. Most other heros I can think of have, at the very least, killed someone at some point in their career.

-All of the Ultimates
-Most of the X-Men
-Captain America in any Universe
-James Bond
-The entire cast of the Avengers movie

Exactly.

I agree that Janet could have shown more growth. However it was in no way ignored. It's just that Millar chose to end her arc in a different way than you or I would have; he had her get back together with Hank. I think I've probably gone into this at some point earlier in the this thread, but a return to an earlier status quo does not necessarily indicate a lack of growth. She had a whole journey of independence and dating Cap, during which time she became a self-sufficient member of the team, rather than relying on her relationship with Hank. In that same time, Hank also grew as a character. He's still far from perfect, but he is truly sorry for what he did. Janet decides to rekindle the flame, but this time it's on her own terms. She's in control for once, something that she never had before.

It's a lot more than point A to point B and back to point A. They both have growth arcs that happen simultaneously, affecting one another's journeys.

Then it could have been like it was in 616 and just have him hit her once, but it wasn't. It no better then Identity Crisis in my eyes.

Sure, sure. You just forgot didn't you. lol

Impossible. Plawsky forgets nothing.

[Robbie_Jee]

Plawsky, if I've been unkind, cruel or abusive to Wyokid in anyway please PM me and tell me off privately please. And at least quote me where I have been. I enjoy these discussions, I really do, and in every post I've sent I've been very well mannered. Sure, I've been thorough in my explanations because I believe it helps the flow of communication and the safe passage of information therefore making sense to the poster receiving any information or knowledge I'd be providing in the discussion, just like everyone else. I try to articulate my thoughts and feelings on the subject material and I try to remain polite and well-mannered whilst doing so. Some of the American posters say I swear a little too much and that it's because the British are very "liberal" in their language. I can't really agree with that definition but I've tried to minimalise the F's and whatnot and occasionally use stars. I find swearing to help articulate emotion well, the F word for example is a wonderfully universal adjective. Lol. I know it is sorta against the rules though but even still, I struggle to understand what you mean by critical. I'd say no more than you. You tend to argue every single one of Wyokid's post on one thread for days sometimes.

No one said he doesn't know how to write heroes. But he didn't write them in Ultimates. If that's Millar's biggest flaw, then that inherently makes Ultimates 3 extremely flawed.

This is what I mean about being ignored. They ARE heroes. Look that word up. Unless you're talking about a bias perception, it means a hero fights for a cause. Or they are the pivotal protagonists in a story, script poem or play. All things the Ultimates are. Perhaps you missed my post though detailing this. It's on the last page.

-James Bond

He kills all the time. He had a "Licence To Kill" meaning: if he kills with intent, he doesn't get arrested for it as long as they are enemies of his government, similarly to soldiers.

EDIT - Sorry I thought you said he DIDN'T kill not did kill. Agreed. Sorry about that.

I'm guessing it has to do with your history of criticizing his viewpoints rather than rational discussions, but I don't want to speak for him.

Sorry Mr Mod have I done something wrong? If so PM me or something. The least you could do is quote me to back up your claims. Otherwise they hold very little weight and I feel offended that you of all people will your holy modding powers wouldn't edit or PM or work your magic some other way instead of cutting in and trying to out me.

[Robbie_Jee]

Have I ever mentioned that I am not a fan of Watchmen? When the Ultimate universe began it was modernizing the 616 stories, in other words, Millar SHOULD have been writing heroes.

Uh...I...I kinda thought they were heroes.

[Robbie_Jee]

OMG I'm still being ignored.
Have I done something wrong?

Plawsky, How have I not been rational? I quote: "history of criticising his viewpoints." Unlike many posters on this forum, I have fully accepted all opinions as opinions. It is actually you who is always criticising his logic more than anyone. I never expected you to be so hypocritical. I still don't know what Wyo meant by 'Wrong' and I fail to understand the immorality of the writers in question. Am I at fault for being confused? How have I been irrational?

[Robbie_Jee]

I forget nothing.

That's a bold statement. You appear to have forgotten that I'd posted this.

Stating that someone is 'heroic' is an objective stand point. For example if I went to war and gunned down hundreds of Arabs, I'd be a national hero to my country.

Nowadays, 'heroic' is usually referred to as brave.

'Hero' by definition is someone who fights for a cause. Your perception of how 'heroic' that may be is irrelevant to Millar being a 'bad writer' or 'a problem'. So you see, your statement holds no weight towards any qualities Millar has a writer.

A hero is someone who fights for a cause, fights for his/her country, or is the protagonist within a story. So by definition, Millar's character were in fact 'heroes'.

Cap, Ironman, Thor, Wasp etc. They were all heroes in The Ultimates 1-3.

[Plawsky]

Have I ever mentioned that I am not a fan of Watchmen?

That's fine, you don't have to be. I understand the dislike for the deconstruction of superheroes. There are people I wouldn't recommend Ultimates to, because I don't think they'd enjoy the whole morally-grey thing. But that's not a fault on Millar or Moore's writing.

When the Ultimate universe began it was modernizing the 616 stories, in other words, Millar SHOULD have been writing heroes.

Mark Millar was there when the UU began. Ultimate X-Men #1 came out before Uncle Ben was dead, only three months after the Ultimate line started. To say what he should have been doing is a little off point. Again, you're faulting him for not writing the story you wanted. Do you watch romantic comedies and criticize them for not being scary enough? There was no precedent to Millar's Ultimates, so there's nothing to say what it should have been. Though, modernizing the 616 stories is exactly what he did. He just didn't modernize them as cut and dry heroes.

Loeb's Ultimates, on the other hand, were following something that came before. There was an expectation of what an Ultimates book was. If Loeb's Ultimates run was called "The Avengers from Earth 45," then a lot of the story's flaws would be gone. It wouldn't fix the problems with pacing and inconsistent plots, but the characterization and disconnect with previous stories would be gone.

Long story short, it's not bad writing just because you wanted it to be different.

Yes, but this is a discussion on Ultimates, so it's not important.

Ah, I see what you did there!

And that's fine; I only mentioned it because you brought it up first. But that means you can't have it both ways. If Millar doesn't write heroes, then neither does Loeb. Though I would argue that non-Ultimates Ultimate work is still a valid topic. I've said several times before that I think the Ultimate Cap Annual was good, though that characterization of Cap was missing from Ultimates 3.

When Cap dismisses the line as something you say in the heat of the moment.

I'm still not really sure what you're referring to. A quote or issue number would be great.

Exactly.

So you wouldn't consider 616-Cap or any of the member in the Avengers film superheroes? That's fine - we all have our definitions. But it seems odd to slight Millar's Ultimates for being unheroic when most other superhero comics don't feature heroes, by that very definition.

Then it could have been like it was in 616 and just have him hit her once, but it wasn't.

Why would a single slap be any better than the fight? Obviously it would be better for Jan's physical health, but I don't see how it would change the story at all.

Impossible. Plawsky forgets nothing.

Didn't I already say that? I don't know... I forget.

They ARE heroes. Look that word up. Unless you're talking about a bias perception, it means a hero fights for a cause. Or they are the pivotal protagonists in a story, script poem or play. All things the Ultimates are. Perhaps you missed my post though detailing this. It's on the last page.

Everyone has different definitions of things; just like right and wrong.

OMG I'm still being ignored.
Have I done something wrong?

Did you think that maybe it's because it's a Saturday afternoon and there are less people posting right now? I never said you were being irrational or rude on this thread. I was offering up a reason, based on past experiences, as to why wyokid might not be answering you. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and I should just let wyokid speak for himself if he wants. As for my disagreements with him, they've never been anything but civil. Yeah, he and I don't agree on everything, but we're here to talk about comics, after all. We get along just fine.

[Robbie_Jee]

Everyone has different definitions of things; just like right and wrong.

Yeah perhaps 'Hero' wasn't the right word for us to use.

Did you think that maybe it's because it's a Saturday afternoon and there are less people posting right now? I never said you were being irrational or rude on this thread. I was offering up a reason, based on past experiences, as to why wyokid might not be answering you. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and I should just let wyokid speak for himself if he wants. As for my disagreements with him, they've never been anything but civil. Yeah, he and I don't agree on everything, but we're here to talk about comics, after all. We get along just fine.

Uh... *cough, cough* you said I wasn't discussing tings rationally.
EDIT - I can quote you if you like.


But I haven't been?? Is that what you meant by not discussing things rationally? I'm not trying to accuse you of being uncivil, I never said that, I just feel that you're dodging away from the discussion and won't admit what you said. I wasn't calling you uncivil. I just detailing the relation.

[Trallis]

I feel like the frailty of character that exists in Ultimate heroes is realistic. If real people randomly got super powers, there wouldn't just be golden heroes and evil super villains. There'd be some good guys with personality disorders, adhd, poor self esteem, or who knows what. There would be some douchey heroes. There would also be villains like doc ock who realize the things they've done were wrong and decide to stop.

I think the character flaws of some of the characters not only make them more interesting, but make the real top notch heroes like Spider-Man really stand out. Peter was so much more special in the ultimate universe because heroes who refuse to kill, put others' safety before their own, and constantly fight for what's right aren't a dime a dozen.

[sage6paths]

I feel like the frailty of character that exists in Ultimate heroes is realistic. If real people randomly got super powers, there wouldn't just be golden heroes and evil super villains. There'd be some good guys with personality disorders, adhd, poor self esteem, or who knows what. There would be some douchey heroes. There would also be villains like doc ock who realize the things they've done were wrong and decide to stop.

I think the character flaws of some of the characters not only make them more interesting, but make the real top notch heroes like Spider-Man really stand out. Peter was so much more special in the ultimate universe because heroes who refuse to kill, put others' safety before their own, and constantly fight for what's right aren't a dime a dozen.

You know if Peter lived it would be interesting to see how Peter would deal with killing. First I'm glad they didn't go that route and killed him off because SPider-Man killing people just doesn't seem right. But it would make interesting stories on how he deals with maybe even becoming a villian like Reed Richards. Now that I think about it more I am kind of glad they did kill off Peter.

[Trallis]

You know if Peter lived it would be interesting to see how Peter would deal with killing. First I'm glad they didn't go that route and killed him off because SPider-Man killing people just doesn't seem right. But it would make interesting stories on how he deals with maybe even becoming a villian like Reed Richards. Now that I think about it more I am kind of glad they did kill off Peter.

Am I missing something? Before Peter died, he didn't seem like he was at any risk of becoming a murder by any stretch of the imagination. I'm pretty sure if they hadn't chosen to have his character die he'd still be super heroing. Personally, I liked that he was killed off too, but for other reasons. But I have to admit I was just kinda neutral on it until after I saw it executed so well. It was apropos.

[wyokid]

That's fine, you don't have to be. I understand the dislike for the deconstruction of superheroes. There are people I wouldn't recommend Ultimates to, because I don't think they'd enjoy the whole morally-grey thing. But that's not a fault on Millar or Moore's writing.



Mark Millar was there when the UU began. Ultimate X-Men #1 came out before Uncle Ben was dead, only three months after the Ultimate line started. To say what he should have been doing is a little off point. Again, you're faulting him for not writing the story you wanted. Do you watch romantic comedies and criticize them for not being scary enough? There was no precedent to Millar's Ultimates, so there's nothing to say what it should have been. Though, modernizing the 616 stories is exactly what he did. He just didn't modernize them as cut and dry heroes.

Loeb's Ultimates, on the other hand, were following something that came before. There was an expectation of what an Ultimates book was. If Loeb's Ultimates run was called "The Avengers from Earth 45," then a lot of the story's flaws would be gone. It wouldn't fix the problems with pacing and inconsistent plots, but the characterization and disconnect with previous stories would be gone.

Long story short, it's not bad writing just because you wanted it to be different.

He didn't modernize them as heroes at all though. Cap is a jerk, Thor is a manipulative hypocrite, Hawkeye and Black Widow murder civilians with their first appearance, Banner is a self-centered jealous man, Tony is an alcoholic with a massive ego who has no value for human life, and all of them are incredibly selfish. We're supposed to root for these guys? Are you really telling me that if humans got superpowers ALL of them would be assholes? I don't buy that for a second and the fact that no one seems to be bothered by that is incredibly disturbing.

Ah, I see what you did there!

And that's fine; I only mentioned it because you brought it up first. But that means you can't have it both ways. If Millar doesn't write heroes, then neither does Loeb. Though I would argue that non-Ultimates Ultimate work is still a valid topic. I've said several times before that I think the Ultimate Cap Annual was good, though that characterization of Cap was missing from Ultimates 3.

Both Millar and Loeb HAVE written heroes in the UU, me not mentioning UFF was a mistake even if I have so many problems with it doesn't mean they weren't heroes.

I'm still not really sure what you're referring to. A quote or issue number would be great.

Taking out him patting himself on the back for getting away with such an Anti-American and Anti-French scene, who writes a joke and then says how good their joke was?

So you wouldn't consider 616-Cap or any of the member in the Avengers film superheroes? That's fine - we all have our definitions. But it seems odd to slight Millar's Ultimates for being unheroic when most other superhero comics don't feature heroes, by that very definition.

I don't recall them killing any humans in The Avengers and who was the last person Cap killed since he's been unfrozen?

Why would a single slap be any better than the fight? Obviously it would be better for Jan's physical health, but I don't see how it would change the story at all.

It's less brutal and isn't just there for shock value, it's also less of an abuse (it is still abuse, just less) so it doesn't have a giant build-up. When your abuse has more panel time then the way it effects the characters you have a problem.

[Robbie_Jee]

Taking out him patting himself on the back for getting away with such an Anti-American and Anti-French scene, who writes a joke and then says how good their joke was?

All I see is Steve admitting that it was stupid.

[taylor51]

He didn't modernize them as heroes at all though. Cap is a jerk, Thor is a manipulative hypocrite, Hawkeye and Black Widow murder civilians with their first appearance, Banner is a self-centered jealous man, Tony is an alcoholic with a massive ego who has no value for human life, and all of them are incredibly selfish. We're supposed to root for these guys? Are you really telling me that if humans got superpowers ALL of them would be assholes? I don't buy that for a second and the fact that no one seems to be bothered by that is incredibly disturbing.

Ultimate Cap is NOT a jerk. He's a soldier. You can post all the scans you want of him kicking Banner in the mouth, when you're engaging a hostile enemy you neutralize them, THEN take the gloves off. Freak, the near-exact same thing happened in the Avengers movie! Widow slams Barton's face into the rail, he comes to and says, "Widow?" to which she responds by looking at him compassionately for half a second then cold cocking him flat out. Don't even know what you're talking about for Thor.

Hawkeye and Black Widow murder ALIENS on their first appearance; they only happen to look like civilians, which ended up being a pretty cool reveal after the wtf moment. Banner just can't catch a break, I don't see where you're getting the self centered jealous man thing. You're stretching on Tony big time. He's 616 Stark without the melodramatics about him being sober. Alcohol has been an integral part of the character since the 70s.

And again, there's the problem that Loeb did the exact same thing with them for the most part and you LoOoOoOvE Ultimates 3 ;). Clearly this isn't the barrier to entry, which will always render this side argument moot.

Taking out him patting himself on the back for getting away with such an Anti-American and Anti-French scene, who writes a joke and then says how good their joke was?

You're taking what was said way out of context. The France thing reflects the time period he's from. France stepping out of the war let the Allies down in a big way. Obviously there's gonna be some resentment. It'd be analogous to expressing resentment for Middle Eastern countries supporting Al Qaeda today. And it's certainly not anti-American in any way.

I don't recall them killing any humans in The Avengers and who was the last person Cap killed since he's been unfrozen?

Well, there's that terrorist dude who's neck he breaks at the beginning of Ultimates II. And Captain Middle East. And probably some AIM dudes.

It's less brutal and isn't just there for shock value, it's also less of an abuse (it is still abuse, just less) so it doesn't have a giant build-up. When your abuse has more panel time then the way it effects the characters you have a problem.

This is a combination of decompression and realism. Hank was ready to back out after the first punch. Then Jan punched back and it went from there. Let's be honest, most of the time domestic abuse isn't a one and done thing. There are significantly worse things towards women in Loeb's run. You're coming up with your opinion first then finding things to support it, not creating an opinion based on what's there. I'm reminiscent of MarvelMaster616 punking on Ultimate X for absolutely NO reason other than that Loeb wrote it.

[wyokid]

Well, there's that terrorist dude who's neck he breaks at the beginning of Ultimates II. And Captain Middle East. And probably some AIM dudes.

I was talking about 616-Cap.

BTW: I don't hate everything Millar's written, Superman Adventures and Superior were both good.