Comparing the Ultimates: Millar, Loeb, Hickman, Humphries

[RockyBanks]

You're not the only one who sees it but you're probably the only one that has a problem with it or is bothered by it.

You know, I've been wondering about that myself. Why aren't Spider-Woman and Black Widow doing anything? They've just stood around for nine issues.

[Hostile_17]

You know, I've been wondering about that myself. Why aren't Spider-Woman and Black Widow doing anything? They've just stood around for nine issues.

I agree Spider-Woman has been benched far too much for my liking (but I loved that, "The Ultimates Suck" panel showing she probably feels the same way )

Black Widow on the other hand I have felt has been an integral part of the team from issue 4 onwards.

She has been quite vocal on a few occasions and has had some good character moments (or at least a much as anyone bar the big 3).

[wyokid]

Really? They just got their asses handed to them by the children... Who also easily overpowered the European super-army.
I'm getting sick and tired of Reed Richards and his army of Mary Sues. At this point they've continuously overpowered anything thrown at them and instead of upping the stakes, it's devalued their contribution to the plot - 'cause now we know they'll have to use a Deus Ex Machina to end them. Predictability is, to me personally, one of the greatest flaws a plot can have.

Which is a major flaw in this series. It's incredibly predictable.

Yeah, that's true. X-Factor is a great book, and Peter David does an awesome job with a no-name cast. But if you were to nitpick it, it is still very Madrox heavy (which it should be, he's the main character). The only other book I can think of is Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, which has a relatively small cast. Well, and Watchmen. I'm not saying there aren't more, but they are few and far between.

Anyway, my point is that few team books give this balance you're calling for; it's only natural to focus on a smaller portion of the cast at one time. And, as I pointed out, the Ultimate team books have never had it, with the possible exception of Millar's Ultimates.



Well, considering you seem unwilling to tell anyone any reason why that's inaccurate, I'll just continue not seeing it. The only positive character arc of the females is Valkyrie's, who overcomes her need for Thor. But she's still not independent, just just has a different master. Zarda shows some power, but not without mentioning Hyperion and her desire to impress him. Carol beat Amora, but is still sleeping with a guy she hates.

Millar's run was all Cap and Thor. The were the main characters.

I told you, I'm working on it, I just don't have the same free time I used to.

You know, I've been wondering about that myself. Why aren't Spider-Woman and Black Widow doing anything? They've just stood around for nine issues.

Exactly. They make cameos in their own series.

[majcvd49]

I mean to be fair, I understand Hickmans reasoning in taking Spider Woman off the board for the moment. She would just be standing on the hovercraft with Hawkeye, Widow, and Fury if she were in the fight anyway. I mean granted she wouldnt be unconscious and imprisoned, but still relegated to background duty nonetheless.

The question is how will Hickman resolve Spider Womans current situation? Im worried we wont see her again for awhile, since shes in Flumm's custody now and essentially "taken care of" plot-wise at the moment

[Plawsky]

Millar's run was all Cap and Thor.

Except for the Hank/Janet Pym storyline, Iron Man, the big Hulk parts, and the focus on Nick Fury. The only characters that were underutilized were Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.

The were the main characters.

And, like I said, main characters are featured in every team book. But Millar's Ultimates was easily the most balanced team book run of the Ultimate Universe. Loeb's Ultimates, however, had four characters who received almost no page time at all, with no development whatsoever.

[taylor51]

Except for the Hank/Janet Pym storyline, Iron Man, the big Hulk parts, and the focus on Nick Fury. The only characters that were underutilized were Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.

I wouldn't even say that. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's involvement in combat was a running joke during Ultimates I and they got moderate screen time throughout Ultimates II. Plus they had the whole awkward brother-sister thing.

[wyokid]

It's true that New Ultimates gave more scenes to female team-members, but the book's attempts at girl-power seemed thoroughly hamstrung by cheese-cake visuals and character arcs that empowered them according to a cartoonishly low standard. Valkyrie's big thing is that she doesn't need Thor?

Look at the subtext mate, there's a LOT going on.

(and yes Plawsky I will eventually get to it!)


I know it's mainly used for films, but Hickman's entire Ultimate run doesn't pass the Bechdel test...

[Cryptid]

Look at the subtext mate, there's a LOT going on.

(and yes Plawsky I will eventually get to it!)


I know it's mainly used for films, but Hickman's entire Ultimate run doesn't pass the Bechdel test...

I'll read your explanation when you get around to writing it, but for the moment I remain skeptical. I'm not denying that Hickman's Ultimates is a bit of a boys club, but I find the plot more engaging that the last round of Loeb and Millar, although Ultimates 2 had much more dynamic and even-handed characterization.

[Plawsky]

I know it's mainly used for films, but Hickman's entire Ultimate run doesn't pass the Bechdel test...

So what? Unless I've missed something, Loeb's has a combined four exchanges between female characters.





New Ultimates has only the conversation between Amora and Danvers (which is arguably about Tony Stark).

Do those few exchanges really make the story any better?

[Robbie_Jee]

I wouldn't even say that. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's involvement in combat was a running joke during Ultimates I

They weren't even in Ultimates I.

[Robbie_Jee]

Look at the subtext mate, there's a LOT going on.

Like what? I'm sorry but this really hasn't provided a good argument as it provides no information to the debate.

[Plawsky]

They weren't even in Ultimates I.

Yes they were.

[robcastor729]

They weren't even in Ultimates I.

They were part of the blacks ops with Black Widow and Hawkeye
I thought?

[wyokid]

So what? Unless I've missed something, Loeb's has a combined four exchanges between female characters.





New Ultimates has only the conversation between Amora and Danvers (which is arguably about Tony Stark).

Do those few exchanges really make the story any better?

I was merely making an observation.

[Plawsky]

I was merely making an observation.

But the observation was not without implication. You obviously meant something by pointing out that it failed the test, and this isn't the first time you've brought up the test recently.