Comparing the Ultimates: Millar, Loeb, Hickman, Humphries

[PhilUrich'sFlamingSword]

New Ultimates is so wonderfully feministic though!

What? Why, because some women beat up some guys? I think you have a pretty backwards view of feminism, Wyo.

[PhilUrich'sFlamingSword]

double post

[wyokid]

What? Why, because some women beat up some guys? I think you have a pretty backwards view of feminism, Wyo.

I don't have time to answer this today, I will explain it all tomorrow.

[MrV]

Liberal (or as you guys call him "hippie" (no difference there, but whatever)) Thor was my biggest problem with Millar's Ultimate work. Thor is a god. he should be a force to be reckond with. When you insult him he should beat the crap out of you.

For all rational and open-minded posters who come across this, this is me sending a positive message to enrich your minds, if you are willing to listen and not judge right away. I want to take a neutral stand for now. I am tired of this endless and pointless debate that will yield from conversing with wyokid. Yes, I read wyokid's thread of "Ultimates... meh" and it became obviously clear someone here is a narcissist who seeks attention by purposely stirring up controversy. I do that too, but at least I am capable of accepting other ideas when given time and shown my mistakes up front.

For those interested, a "god" would have to stand out above other lifeforms not for his strength but for his/her ability to solve problems without resorting to primitive means. A true deity does not resort to primitive human behaviors right away, but seeks the best option out of a dilemma. What we commonly see in mainstream fiction is a misconception of what a deity should be. Ultimates tried to do away with that originally to portray a true realistic setting. That is why the cast had to be balanced and different ideas FROM THE REAL WORLD had to be portrayed and embodied by the most likely characters. Most importantly, deities should not be feared but looked up to for their value.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being Liberal. The bashing is unnecessary. Both sides of the equation have their flaws, but also both have their strengths.

Millar portrayed a realistic god. He needed the mentality of an activist and had to gain supporters for his cause. He also had to be kind but bold, and only showcase his true power when necessary, like when his own mortality became apparent.

For these reasons we can say Reed fits the true definition of a god better than Loeb's Thor. Except Reed lacks sympathy for others (and created most of his supporters), unlike Millar's Thor, who tried to accept the differences of others and compromise. Like when he agreed to help the Ultimates in exchange for an increase in budget for conservation of the environment.

Also the Thor we saw originally during Millar's run helped others even if they were against him, and cared for humanity as a whole, rather than his own well-being.

Loeb did good for a fiction writer which is why he still has work to this day (he's commercially appropriate for a market thirsty for mindless brawls and eye pop corn), but ignored the context of the UU.

[Robbie_Jee]

Since I totally knew that when I was going into it. Also Hickman's UCTU is good old fashion good guy vs bad guy.

No it isn't. Some may argue that Reed is right. That's the whole 'schtick' about the Children and Reed Richards plan. You get that right? It's actually the opposite of "good versus bad guy". Whereas in The Ultimates 1 and 2, the bad guys were the bad guys.

As I said before I hadn't noticed it in The Ultimates 2 until it was pointed out to me. I had been correcting sage because he ha said that Loeb came up with it. My personal opinion is that if you are going to have incest be upfront about it.

Huh? You've always expressed how you hate the incest.

New Ultimates was roundly derided as awful, by me as well as nearly every person on this board. I know you're just stating your opinion, but you may want to rephrase your original post - it sounds like you're saying it was objectively great. Also, while Ultimate X was better than any of Loeb's other Ultimate work (which is like giving Cro Magnons credit for being more advanced than Neanderthals, while they still pale compared to modern Homo Sapiens), it was far from one of the best Ultimate Comics. Your mileage will vary, but for me, the overall best Ultimate stories so far have been, in no particular order, the entire original run of Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimates 1 and 2, and Ultimate Gah Lak Tus (although Hickman's Ultimates is taking a run at getting into the top three as we speak).

New Ultimates is THE worst book in the entire UU. Even worse than Ultimates 3! I mean, Ultimates 3 started good, I was really impressed with the first issue, but New Ultimates was start to finish a disgusting shit heap of a comic book. Sorry I'm trying to be as clear as possible with how I feel about the worst comicbook I've ever read. The Defenders came down at the start and it was dreadful. Inner monologues interrupting the flow of conversations, inner-monologuing seeming very much like a forced approach of the writer to make him sound deep and powerful. It wasn't just bad, it was a joke. And it makes Loeb look like a joke too. The entire fightscene was a horrible experience and it made be cringe. I was actually embarrassed by Loeb's parthetic attempt at writing for the UU. It's the worst beginning to a comicbook I've ever read and it didn't help that I wasn't too struck on the art either.

I waited and waited and waited for Thor's inevitable resurrection and I was really expecting to be highly entertained, or at least quite entertained for the finale. I thought 'nothing can go wrong. All Loeb has to do now is pull off a good action scene.' But then he just fought the rest of the Ultimates, which didn't make any sense and the Jungle Twins and Black Panther had no relevance to what was going on. I really wanted to see Black Panther fight too. It's a shame that he ended up as a redundant useless character. The big fight scene at the end of New Ultimates was terrible to read and terrible to look at. Definitely the most disappointing moment in the UU for me. The book was a complete waste of time. Even I could have written Thor's return better. But the problem with Loeb is that he can't do anything right. He can't even direct a good comicbook fight scene in the UU without it being boring. Well... actually... Ultimate X was pretty good and I enjoyed the action scenes in that. But New Uktimates is IMO the worst book in the UU.

And as extra I'd like to quickly post a few of my thoughts on Ultimatum's action scenes.

Ultimatum's action scenes had no substance, nothing particularly pleasing to read or to look at except for Thor and Cap fighting a legion of the undead in Valhalla but even that didn't make a lot of sense. Why was Cap even there? And the fight against Magneto at the end was completely stupid. They should've taken him down easily but instead some members died in the attack simply because most of them were just standing around doing nothing. Magneto escaped them briefly at one point and I can't see how he could've snuck away so easily. The heros should've had no problem defeating Magneto. It was like most of them had just come to watch and just stood there watching their freinds get murdered. No wonder Tony was so upset about Wolverine's death, no one did anything! Why didn't they just blast the f***er away!? Stupid ending to a stupid book. Loeb killed off Jan (one of my all time favourite comicbook females) and made a joke about it. I hate Loeb for that. I really do. I really want to post the most hurtfull things about Loeb for doing that. But I won't because I know I'll just get a slap on the wrist from Plawsky.

[wyokid]

For all rational and open-minded posters who come across this, this is me sending a positive message to enrich your minds, if you are willing to listen and not judge right away. I want to take a neutral stand for now. I am tired of this endless and pointless debate that will yield from conversing with wyokid. Yes, I read wyokid's thread of "Ultimates... meh" and it became obviously clear someone here is a narcissist who seeks attention by purposely stirring up controversy. I do that too, but at least I am capable of accepting other ideas when given time and shown my mistakes up front.

For those interested, a "god" would have to stand out above other lifeforms not for his strength but for his/her ability to solve problems without resorting to primitive means. A true deity does not resort to primitive human behaviors right away, but seeks the best option out of a dilemma. What we commonly see in mainstream fiction is a misconception of what a deity should be. Ultimates tried to do away with that originally to portray a true realistic setting. That is why the cast had to be balanced and different ideas FROM THE REAL WORLD had to be portrayed and embodied by the most likely characters. Most importantly, deities should not be feared but looked up to for their value.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being Liberal. The bashing is unnecessary. Both sides of the equation have their flaws, but also both have their strengths.

Millar portrayed a realistic god. He needed the mentality of an activist and had to gain supporters for his cause. He also had to be kind but bold, and only showcase his true power when necessary, like when his own mortality became apparent.

For these reasons we can say Reed fits the true definition of a god better than Loeb's Thor. Except Reed lacks sympathy for others (and created most of his supporters), unlike Millar's Thor, who tried to accept the differences of others and compromise. Like when he agreed to help the Ultimates in exchange for an increase in budget for conservation of the environment.

Also the Thor we saw originally during Millar's run helped others even if they were against him, and cared for humanity as a whole, rather than his own well-being.

Loeb did good for a fiction writer which is why he still has work to this day (he's commercially appropriate for a market thirsty for mindless brawls and eye pop corn), but ignored the context of the UU.

Wow, I liked you too.

For the record I don't try to start controversy, I state my opinion on how I see it. If you don't like it tough.

[striderhirryu2]

Yeah, that's what the symbol of America should be, a giant asshat. T_T

It's not okay for the symbol of America to be portrayed that way, and the symbol of the European Union SHOULD be portrayed that way? Sorry to break it to you but America's looked like a giant asshat to us non-Americans for a good decade now

[Robbie_Jee]

New Ultimates is so wonderfully feministic though!

You mean when Carol Danvers couldn't control the team and decided to attack them? She was a miserable failure and if anything an insult to women. It didn't help either that Cap kicked Valkyrie in the c**t in issue two. Seriously Wyo, I applaud your ability to come up with these ideas. I bet if you met Hitler you'd be like 'That Hitler. I know he's a horrible Jew exterminating bellend when he's at work but seriously, I've just had a chat with him and he actually seems like a really nice bloke.' You see good in all the bad. Don't stop that.

[pinq09]

It's not okay for the symbol of America to be portrayed that way, and the symbol of the European Union SHOULD be portrayed that way? Sorry to break it to you but America's looked like a giant asshat to us non-Americans for a good decade now

QFT. from the moment the ultimates were portrayed as a force of U.S, anyhting but something like Millars ultimates would be ridiculous.

Wyokid : How the hell do you think that U.S. would behave if they had super soldiers? In this respect Millars Ultimates were very favourable to America.

P.S: If you want to read old fashioned good v bad stories, you have plenty of stuff to choose from. Current Justice League springs to mind. TBH, If I were you I would not bother with an universe that is this political (UCXM, UCU) (and it does not get much more political in superhero comics than in UU0.

P.S: American definition of the world "liberal" is ridiculous. I just feel someone needs to bring that up.

[MrV]

Every debate on the internet is endless and pointless. Don't take it so personally brah

True but the internet can also be used to do good. Real life debates can be pointless too, but discussing things openly can help someone out there think of a solution. It may not be you or me, but someone somewhere in the world may read this nonsense and learn what mistakes not to make or figure out a way to make something good out of this. There are optimistic and good people out there, sometimes they are shy, but most likely they will be reading this.

The best to do is send them a message to let them know they are not alone.

[wyokid]

No it isn't. Some may argue that Reed is right. That's the whole 'schtick' about the Children and Reed Richards plan. You get that right? It's actually the opposite of "good versus bad guy". Whereas in The Ultimates 1 and 2, the bad guys were the bad guys.

No, Reed is wrong. Reed thinks he's right in the same way Hitler thought he was right.

Huh? You've always expressed how you hate the incest.

No dude, I love it. It's so taboo. I'm not into banging my family, but it's fascinating to read about.

It's not okay for the symbol of America to be portrayed that way, and the symbol of the European Union SHOULD be portrayed that way? Sorry to break it to you but America's looked like a giant asshat to us non-Americans for a good decade now

I never said the symbol of Europe should be. No symbol should be.

QFT. from the moment the ultimates were portrayed as a force of U.S, anyhting but something like Millars ultimates would be ridiculous.

Wyokid : How the hell do you think that U.S. would behave if they had super soldiers? In this respect Millars Ultimates were very favourable to America.

P.S: If you want to read old fashioned good v bad stories, you have plenty of stuff to choose from. Current Justice League springs to mind. TBH, If I were you I would not bother with an universe that is this political (UCXM, UCU) (and it does not get much more political in superhero comics than in UU0.

P.S: American definition of the world "liberal" is ridiculous. I just feel someone needs to bring that up.

The same way any country would, incorrectly.

I started reading comics with the Ultimate universe. The Ultimates isn't real-life politically driven anymore and it's really good.

[Trevor M.]

Alright, here we go.



I started reading comics with Ultimate Spider-Man and started Ultimate X-Men with the first arc. I hated it so much that it wasn't until recent years that I've been giving any X-Men titles a chance. Mark Millar ruined the X-Men for several years for me. When I heard the line was ending with Ultimatum I bought all 100 issues for collecting sake since I had all of the other books. I had heard that The Ultimates was the "blockbuster" comic so I started reading it and was disgusted by the so called "realistic approach". Real heroes aren't all assholes, not everyone is out to get everyone, and true heroes don't kill the enemy unless absolutely necessary. To quote Grant Morrison "[Mark Millar] destroyed my faith in human fucking nature". The Ultimates 2 #13 was going to be the last one and I was going to give up comics until I saw this image (not THIS image per-say, it had the title and the people working on it). A new volume of The Ultimates that had a different writer, a different artist, and what looked to be heroes fighting villains the old fashion way. I told myself that I would only pick up the first issue, but when I finished the first issue I was hooked. Good guys fighting bad guys the good old fashion way. I picked up issue #2 and was floored by how much better it was. They actually felt like heroes on a team instead of a bunch of assholes who were gathered by a bigger asshole. Loeb gave me the real "blockbuster" comic I had been expecting. It was fun, it was risque, it was awesome, and I loved every page of it. Next came Ultimate Hulk Annual #1 which was great, so much fun and humor packed into a comic. Loved it. Ultimate Captain America Annual #1 helped fill in Black Panther's back-story and was great (I'm not the only one on here who thinks it either) I then got Ultimatum and loved it. It was cheesy, it was funny, it was a summer action flick in comic form, and I got so much joy in seeing a massive slaughter of heroes (especially since they were almost all Millar's creations), and I the final assault on Magneto was incredible. However it wasn't GOOD. It was my first guilty pleasure comic. These books were my first Loeb comics. I went and found his other work and currently I own all of his work. New Ultimates was fantastic and Ultimate X was a near masterpiece.

Loeb didn't introduce the incest. I thought he had too, but it was actually on these forums that I learned otherwise (which is why I am SEVERELY annoyed that no one is saying anything).

Thor was a character I never cared for. He was the biggest asshole of the group and he was my least favorite character. Then Loeb turned him into a badass who just wanted booze, to get laid, and win every battle. Yeah he was a bigger asshole, but he didn't give a crap about anyone else (which is how I view "god" lol) and he could care less about the government. He was the Thor I always wanted, but never thought I would get.

Sounds like you're reading Ultimate Marvel for all the wrong reasons then.

Loeb's early work is fantastic and I highly recommend all of his Batman work.

I can agree with this.

[wyokid]

Sounds like you're reading Ultimate Marvel for all the wrong reasons then.
I can agree with this.

Well I'm currently reading it for the great stories it is telling

[Trevor M.]

Well I'm currently reading it for the great stories it is telling

All of us do. However, I find fault in the "loving" Jeph Loeb's Ultimate books. Those are tentatively known as the darkest days in Ultimate history, with slapdash writing here or pointless death there. If you like the classic Good guy vs Bad guy formula then stick to 616 and DC, that's basically all they do nowadays.

[wyokid]

Well from what I'm seeing, all three Ultimate Comics has good vs evil going on right now. It may not have started like that, but it is now and from the looks of it everyone but "team bring back Parker" is happy with it.