Comparing the Ultimates: Millar, Loeb, Hickman, Humphries

[wyokid]

Funny how you don't complain about Jeph Loeb's Hulk murdering Mystique, Blob & attempt at attacking Quicksilver then, not to mention it's interesting Mark Waid's take on on Hulk isn't either depressing for you, because you either tag the words "character development" and "out of character" not because you understand the meaning of these words, but because you are unable to accept something different, so it has to be either horribly wrong, but never can be seen as natural progression of the story and something the character would do and has been developed in the past so readers find it reasonable and believable.

As a man whos inspiring to be an writer, how can you not tell these two apart?

Character development has to be shown. There was character development shown through Jason Aaron's Hulk which led to Mark Waid's Hulk. Ultimate Hulk has always been a monster of destruction who doesn't stop smashing and eating people. To have him suddenly stop for no reason is out of character. Had he stopped and then smashed Reed's head in or grab him and bite his head off it would have worked.

[Drz]

Character development has to be shown. There was character development shown through Jason Aaron's Hulk which led to Mark Waid's Hulk.

Okay, i'll take the bite, what is the actual development (Outside of Banner finally accepting he can never truly get rid of the Hulk)? Or is the development how Jason Aaron's Hulk & his homocidal Bruce Banner merged together, we have this angsty-ridden psychopath Doctor throwing gambits towards the American government, with no real regard to his own legacy truly, as long as he can do whatever he wants so the public wikipedia page about him is positive?

Now, if Mark Waid gets the praise of character developement because there's a new reinvention of the character due to another writer's conclusion, why doesn't Hickman get any credit for how he worked out things from Ultimate X? See, it's again you using the words "character development" and "out of character" because you read about these in a forum and interviews, but you don't know what they mean.

Ultimate Hulk has always been a monster of destruction who doesn't stop smashing and eating people.

I enjoy your total ignorance towards Ultimate X & Ultimate Fallout, not to mention Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk comic. You even ignore the final pages of Ultimates 2, showing the aftermath of the battle and Hulk being very calm and sensible before reverting back to human.

[wyokid]

Okay, i'll take the bite, what is the actual development (Outside of Banner finally accepting he can never truly get rid of the Hulk)? Or is the development how Jason Aaron's Hulk & his homocidal Bruce Banner merged together, we have this angsty-ridden psychopath Doctor throwing gambits towards the American government, with no real regard to his own legacy truly, as long as he can do whatever he wants so the public wikipedia page about him is positive?

The development is both. Bruce has realized that he can't get of Hulk so instead of working to get rid of him he's wanting to do good with him while trying to repair his own public image as he does good to the world.

Now, if Mark Waid gets the praise of character developement because there's a new reinvention of the character due to another writer's conclusion, why doesn't Hickman get any credit for how he worked out things from Ultimate X? See, it's again you using the words "character development" and "out of character" because you read about these in a forum and interviews, but you don't know what they mean.

Ultimate Runaways, while I don't like it, was character development. I never said it wasn't.

I enjoy your total ignorance towards Ultimate X & Ultimate Fallout, not to mention Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk comic. You even ignore the final pages of Ultimates 2, showing the aftermath of the battle and Hulk being very calm and sensible before reverting back to human.

Ultimate Fallout/Ultimate X had Karen controlling the beast. Ultimates 2 is no different than Ultimatum where Hulk was being calm after smashing. In Ultimates Hulk is in mid-smash when he starts talking out his problems while not being controlled by Karen.

[Drz]

The development is both.

Show me the true seeds and ideas that we're inserted here, otherwise it's the same as your Ultimate Hulk complaiment. Citations. Mark Waid's run just begins with Bruce Banner out of nowhere starts black mailing SHIELD as a now short-haired handsome alpha male man (because readers want to relate to cool edgy badasses) who gets to sweet talk with a big titty Maria Hill.

Ultimate Fallout/Ultimate X had Karen controlling the beast.

If Karen was truly in charge, why was Hulk threatening Mystique + Nick Fury, not to mention just gives up on SHIELD? Also your argument ignores Wolverine vs. Hulk because you know you are losing.

[wyokid]

Show me the true seeds and ideas that we're inserted here, otherwise it's the same as your Ultimate Hulk complaiment. Citations. Mark Waid's run just begins with Bruce Banner out of nowhere starts black mailing SHIELD as a now short-haired handsome alpha male man (because readers want to relate to cool edgy badasses) who gets to sweet talk with a big titty Maria Hill.

Nothing on paper. Just seems like a natural progression.

If Karen was truly in charge, why was Hulk threatening Mystique + Nick Fury, not to mention just gives up on SHIELD? Also your argument ignores Wolverine vs. Hulk because you know you are losing.

You're right. I'm wrong.

[Plawsky]

Not only is Hulk number three but Ultimate Hulk is my favorite Ultimate character and to have him go from Hulk Smash to Hulk Talk Out His Problem was so depressingly out of character but a HUGE letdown as well. The whole thing was really. So many out of character moments and let downs. This must have been what The Ultimates 3 was like for you guys. You missed the entire point of my post though. I was comparing the current Ultimates to the original that Millar wrote.

Character development has to be shown. There was character development shown through Jason Aaron's Hulk which led to Mark Waid's Hulk. Ultimate Hulk has always been a monster of destruction who doesn't stop smashing and eating people. To have him suddenly stop for no reason is out of character. Had he stopped and then smashed Reed's head in or grab him and bite his head off it would have worked.

What about Wolverine vs Hulk? There was a lot of "Hulk Talk Out His Problem" in that book.

Also your argument ignores Wolverine vs. Hulk because you know you are losing.

Is it really about winning and losing?

[Wolverine12]

What about Wolverine vs Hulk? There was a lot of "Hulk Talk Out His Problem" in that book.

Until Logan mentions Betty, than its all "look out, I'm gonna rip you in half"

[Plawsky]

Until Logan mentions Betty, than its all "look out, I'm gonna rip you in half"

Well duh, you don't talk about a man's woman!!

[wyokid]

What about Wolverine vs Hulk? There was a lot of "Hulk Talk Out His Problem" in that book.

See, I remember that only being a very brief part of it. Hulk was calm and under control during that period to.

Until Logan mentions Betty, than its all "look out, I'm gonna rip you in half"

This is what I remember taking up most of the story.

[taylor51]

I have ten characters that are my favorites

10. Superman
9. Foggy
8. Dr. Strange
7. Captain America
6. Ghost Rider
5. Lois Lane
4. Punisher
3. Hulk
2. Daredevil
1. Mary Jane

As long as they are written correctly the comic can be just god awful and it won't piss me off.

Not only is Hulk number three but Ultimate Hulk is my favorite Ultimate character and to have him go from Hulk Smash to Hulk Talk Out His Problem was so depressingly out of character but a HUGE letdown as well. The whole thing was really. So many out of character moments and let downs. This must have been what The Ultimates 3 was like for you guys. You missed the entire point of my post though. I was comparing the current Ultimates to the original that Millar wrote.

Who cares what you're saying... You're back! :)

[taylor51]

Okay, i'll take the bite, what is the actual development (Outside of Banner finally accepting he can never truly get rid of the Hulk)? Or is the development how Jason Aaron's Hulk & his homocidal Bruce Banner merged together, we have this angsty-ridden psychopath Doctor throwing gambits towards the American government, with no real regard to his own legacy truly, as long as he can do whatever he wants so the public wikipedia page about him is positive?

The development doesn't necessarily follow the trajectory of any arc that came before it, but it's certainly a brilliant place to take Banner to give him a meaningful spot in the Marvel Universe. I have never understood Classic Hulk comics. Even concepts that I think are cool like Planet Hulk or WWH lose me because Banner isn't doing anything and the Hulk's adventures feel entirely disconnected from what else is going on in the MU. Waid's contextualizing Hulk like Ultimate Hulk and I love it.

[Robbie_Jee]

I like your way of scoring so I am going to copy it

my ratings
5 of 5 = supurb/amazing
4 of 5 = great
3 of 5 = good
2 of 5 = ok/meh
1 of 5 = bad
0 of 5 = horrible

I'm going to do the same.

THE ULTIMATES --- 5
THE ULTIMATES 2 --- 4.5

THE ULTIMATES 3 --- 1
ULTIMATUM --- 1
NEW ULTIMATES --- 0

ULTIMATE COMICS: ARMOR WARS --- 3
ULTIMATE COMICS: THOR --- 4
ULTIMATE COMICS: CAPTAIN AMERICA --- 5
ULTIMATE COMICS: IRON MAN --- 4

ULTIMATE COMICS: AVENGERS --- 5
ULTIMATE COMICS: AVENGERS 2 --- 4
ULTIMATE COMICS: AVENGERS 3 --- 2.5
ULTIMATE COMICS: AVENGERS VS NEW ULTIMATES --- 2

ULTIMATE COMICS: THE ULTIMATES (Hickman) --- 4.5
ULTIMATE COMICS: THE ULTIMATES (Humphries) --- 1.5

[Robbie_Jee]

Character development has to be shown. There was character development shown through Jason Aaron's Hulk which led to Mark Waid's Hulk. Ultimate Hulk has always been a monster of destruction who doesn't stop smashing and eating people. To have him suddenly stop for no reason is out of character. Had he stopped and then smashed Reed's head in or grab him and bite his head off it would have worked.

No, it wouldn't have. Hulk would never be able to that to Reed.

[Robbie_Jee]

There was lots of character development. Hulk found a superbeing whom he could trust and whom he could even call a friend. And his agenda was all for the one he loved, to rescue Betty Ross aka She-Hulk. It's more character development than Ultimate Hulk has ever recieved! What are you talking about, Wyo?

[Drz]

Nothing on paper. Just seems like a natural progression.

Interesting quote, because you said this just previously:

Character development has to be shown.

So by your logic Hickman's Bruce Banner development actually did NOT need anything to be shown, because it seems like a natural progression and thus *poof* all critism is long gone? Interesting, was this a neutral objective look on both writers? Did you see it that way? Do you as a writer look things objectively regarding Marvel Comics and depending who the writer is?

You're right. I'm wrong.

And you remember that. Wyokid, you're a nice guy, i'm sure you're a very kind person out there, but you really need to take a serious look how you want to approach your career at writing. Now i could write a long wall of text rambling about things, but i just want to say this: Stop showing favorism and blind hypocrisy between writers.

Is it really about winning and losing?

Naaah.

The development doesn't necessarily follow the trajectory of any arc that came before it, but it's certainly a brilliant place to take Banner to give him a meaningful spot in the Marvel Universe.

Are you saying he didn't have a meaningful spot before?

I have never understood Classic Hulk comics

Have you read classic Hulk comics?

Even concepts that I think are cool like Planet Hulk or WWH lose me because Banner isn't doing anything and the Hulk's adventures feel entirely disconnected from what else is going on in the MU.

How about you read the books before judging them by their covers?

Waid's contextualizing Hulk like Ultimate Hulk and I love it.

Sure, doesn't mean the past was bad.