Old School/Classic Wrestling

[brundlefly]

Oh, cool. How I have I overlooked this forum up until now? I'm not watching the current WWE or TNA products, but I was a big pro-wrestling fan from the early-mid 80s up until around WM 20 or so.

What is your favourite feud?

Probably Steamboat/Savage from the WWF or the extended Four Horsemen/Dusty Rhodes saga from the NWA/WCW for classic-era feuds. Either Hart/Austin or HHH/Rock for latter-day 'Attitude'-era feuds.

Favourite old school tag team?

Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson
Midnight Express (Eaton & Lane)
British Bulldogs
Hart Foundation
Minnesota Wrecking Crew
Tanaka & Fuji
Steiner Brothers
The Koloffs
Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton (Dangerous Alliance)
The Islanders (Haku & Tama)

How about everyone's favorite old-school heels, and old-school faces?

From the NWA, it would be Ric Flair & the Four Horsemen, hands down, from the original Ole incarnation through the Windham incarnation (I thought the later attempts to recapture the magic didn't work as well and often involved new members that I didn't care for). From the WWF, definitely early-era "Macho Man" Randy Savage at the top spot. Overall, I also really dug the Midnight Express & Jim Cornette, Nikita Koloff, The Great Muta, Paul E Dangerously & the Dangerous Alliance, Jake "the Snake" Roberts, The Hart Foundation, "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig, Ted DiBiase, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Rick Rude, Magnificent Muraco, Paul Orndorff, Bobby "The Brain" Heenan, Terry Funk, Austin Idol, Gino Hernandez, Jesse Ventura, Larry Zbyszko, & Bruiser Brody.

I was always more of a mark for the heels than the faces, so my favorite old-school faces list will be shorter: Rick Steamboat, Sting, Andre the Giant, Barry Windham, The British Bulldogs, Lex Luger (in his early NWA/WCW days when he made an effort), Brian Pillman, Rick & Scott Steiner, Steve Williams, Magnum TA, Jerry Lawler (his Mid-South days), Kevin Von Erich, Eddie Gilbert, & Rick Martel.

I've never actually heard anyone talk about how Barbarian wasn't a good worker. I always thought he moreorless was.

Same here; he had good mobility for a big guy, imo. I felt it was Warlord who was the bad worker/weak link that brought down the PoP's overall workrate.

[Gryphon]

Its a new subforum.

[XPac]

How about everyone's favorite old-school heels, and old-school faces?

When you say old school heel, it's hard NOT think of Ric Flair first and foremost. The man was the best of the best.

I was a big fan of Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect, and the Million Dollar Man. All three of those guys should have been world champions at one point or another. Great workers with great gimmicks... they had it all.

For faces... I'll say Sting. He was an exciting performer that was ahead of his time in a lot of ways. And he genuinely came off like a cool guy... that's always nice.

Honestly though, I'm having trouble thinking of faces that I really liked. In hindsight I think the heels were a lot more entertaining back in the day.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

i'm really not sure where you got this idea, the question wasn't where they got their start, it was did they work for WCW before they worked for the WWF.

Considering WCW is an extension of the NWA, that's where I got the idea you thought they started out in the WWF.

[Aubergine~!]

Oh, cool. How I have I overlooked this forum up until now?

It was only started a few days ago. Welcome aboard!

Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson

Man, I miss Tully. Dude was sheer awesome.

Also, while we're talking old school tag teams, I've always felt that the Miracle Violence Connection had the coolest tag team name ever. The fact that Williams and Gordy were both total badasses just made the whole thing even better.

The second coolest tag name IMO was The Holy Demon Army (Kawada & Taue, both also incredible badasses), and frankly just the ring announcements of the matches between the two were probably so manly that any women in the first few rows would end up pregnant by the end of them.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

When you say old school heel, it's hard NOT think of Ric Flair first and foremost. The man was the best of the best.

I was a big fan of Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect, and the Million Dollar Man. All three of those guys should have been world champions at one point or another. Great workers with great gimmicks... they had it all.

For faces... I'll say Sting. He was an exciting performer that was ahead of his time in a lot of ways. And he genuinely came off like a cool guy... that's always nice.

I can't believe I forgot about Mr. Perfect.....He was definitely a top heel that I liked.

Sting was pretty good when he was in his prime in WCW, with what some call the "surfer" gimmick. I never cared for the crow gimmick he went for later.

Demolition also had much better entrance music.

Here comes the Ax, here comes the Smasherrr

Epic.

Totally disagree. The Demolition entrance song is nothing compared to the Road Warriors rampaging into the ring with Black Sabbath's "Iron Man" in the background......Their WWF entrance song was lame, though.

From the NWA, it would be Ric Flair & the Four Horsemen, hands down, from the original Ole incarnation through the Windham incarnation (I thought the later attempts to recapture the magic didn't work as well and often involved new members that I didn't care for).

With the Horsemen, my preference is the original 4. The only newer version of the Four Horsemen I liked was when Benoit & Malenko were in there. Both were excellent additions in terms of appearance and work-rate. Only problem is, neither of them had mic skills compared to the original Horsemen.

What I find interesting is, during the original Four Horsemen era, you had babyfaces like Dusty Rhodes and Jimmy Valiant bragging about being with prostitutes (They'd practially outright say it)........Then you have the Four Horsemen, who were stylin & profilin, and getting girls at their leisure while, unlike the babyfaces, not having to pay to have a girl with them.......Just an odd side-element to that whole feud. Granted, Valiant was probably implying he was a pimp, and wasn't having to pay for the girls, but still. Who were fans supposed to respect more? People who fornicate with prostitutes, or guys who are able to pick up women who aren't streetwalkers?

[Aubergine~!]

Totally disagree. The Demolition entrance song is nothing compared to the Road Warriors rampaging into the ring with Black Sabbath's "Iron Man" in the background......Their WWF entrance song was lame, though.

I was talking about their WWF songs, but yeah, Iron Man kicked ass.

Honestly one of the best things about indie wrestling is that they use recognizable songs for entrance music.

[Aubergine~!]

Actually, while I'm on the subject of tag teams, did Val Venis and the Godfather once have a tag team called 'Supply and Demand', or am I making that up? This was pre RTC, I think.

Because if that was real, that was genious.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

I've never actually heard anyone talk about how Barbarian wasn't a good worker. I always thought he moreorless was.

The gimmicks he had certainly allowed whatever issues he had to be explained away. (he's a barbarian! he's a monster!) And he always had a fearsome look which worked - I preferred him in his WWF solo run (with the antlers!) and Faces of Fears days, versus the Powers of Pain era.

i dug the faces of fear. the gimmicks didn't require them to be great workers either. kick of fear + tongan death grip=awesomeness.

Considering WCW is an extension of the NWA, that's where I got the idea you thought they started out in the WWF.

WCW didn't officially come into being until like 89 though right??

Actually, while I'm on the subject of tag teams, did Val Venis and the Godfather once have a tag team called 'Supply and Demand', or am I making that up? This was pre RTC, I think.

Because if that was real, that was genious.

i liked val venis short lived tag team with lance storm also. which reminds me i was watching a WCW ppv and afterwards there was a ppv match of D-lo brown defending his euro title against venis. D-lo being announced from helsinki finland was great enough but then him working the hell out of the chest protector gimmick and them just having a good match was even better. too bad there wasn't enough room on the dvd for the whole match

demolitions music video was AWESOME too!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RoTgHFh39Q

brian adams(RIP) was bad enough, but i am glad we never had to see heidenreich as a member of demolition.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

WCW didn't officially come into being until like 89 though right??

It was somewhere between '89-'90 when it officially became WCW and was owned by Ted Turner.

Thing is, the Georgia territory was calling itself "World Championship Wrestling" long before that, when Jim Barnett came in control. This was in the early 80's.

Also, when Jim Crockett Promotions took over, they combined Georgia and the Carolinas (I think the Carolinas was simply what was called Mid-Atlantic), along with the St. Louis territory. Then they eventually also bought out Florida, Mid-South (What became UWF at one point under Bill Watts before selling out to Crockett), and the Central States territories.

Due to this, a lot of fans from the old days consider the NWA and WCW one and the same, in particular Georgia & the Carolinas, especially from the 80s-onward.

And, if you think about it, considering WCW to be an extension of the Georgia & Carolina NWA territories is very similar to considering the WWF/WWE to be an extension of the WWWF (Vince Sr's territory).......Both WCW & WWF were larger entities which absorbed many of the former territories. Granted, WWWF was owned by Vince Sr, and the current owner of the WWF/WWE is his son, and the name was changed to WWF by Vince Sr shortly before selling the company to Vince Jr, but, any family relationships aside, it's a similar situation.

I think the confusion I had in your post was over you considering WCW to be from when Ted Turner took over the brand, which, technically, can be considered correct.

[Sean Walsh]

Same here; he had good mobility for a big guy, imo. I felt it was Warlord who was the bad worker/weak link that brought down the PoP's overall workrate.

Yeah, Warlord was the real anchor. Which is sad, since he's the one who got more attention. After Fuji "sold" the POP contracts (to Heenan and Slick) Barbarian just got immediately tossed into the Heenan family, while Warlord got a prolonged wait and something of a new gimmick. And juiced up - can't forget that.

2 years later (early '92), both left thw WWF around the same time......but while Barbarian never rose about the low-midcard, all Warlord did was fall from whatever high hopes they had for him as a solo wrestler.

Actually, while I'm on the subject of tag teams, did Val Venis and the Godfather once have a tag team called 'Supply and Demand', or am I making that up? This was pre RTC, I think.

Because if that was real, that was genious.

I remember that too. Not an official name.....not even an official team - they tagged on TV some but no real program for them - but that name was out there somehow (either on the 'net or mentioned by commentators)

[BeastieRunner]

I remember that too. Not an official name.....not even an official team - they tagged on TV some but no real program for them - but that name was out there somehow (either on the 'net or mentioned by commentators)

They never were called that officially but I believe that was all over the internet.

I jacked that name back in the day for an efed I ran.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

As for feuds, these were some of my favorites. I'm sure I'm forgetting to list quite a few that I liked, but this is what comes up off the top of my head:

Freebirds vs Von Erichs ---In actuality, in terms of work-rate, it was only a good feud if Terry Gordy was involved. But, the whole angle, especially the initial X-Mas '82 situation, just made a huge spark. In my opinion, this feud is what first started to popularize pro wrestling on a larger scale, along with Hulkamania emerging in the AWA.

Rick Rude vs Ric Flair ---I loved this feud. Two great gimmicks/personalities going head-to-head, and the cause of it was Rick Rude's infatuation with Fifi.

Nikita Koloff vs "Magga TA" (Magnum TA) ---Although Magnum was a popular babyface, I'm not a big fan of his (Although I liked him when I was a kid).....But this was a great feud, complete with hangings over the top rope with a chain. Plus, it involved nephew Nikita's fantastic initial run.

Road Warriors vs Russians (Koloffs) ---A great rivalry involving two seemingly unbeatable tag teams. Due to the Cold War, and general hatred towards Russians/Soviets, the Road Warriors, formerly heels, became babyfaces during this run......Of course, this preceded nephew Nikita's rivalry with "Magga TA," so you got more of Nikita's initial run, along with uncle Ivan's ring generaliship & mic work, and the added bonus of a healthy Krusher Kruschev (As opposed to his work in Demolition). Granted, Kruschev got injured during this general run, but it was still fantastic stuff.......When Kruschev got injured, Baron Von Raschke joined the fray, and they did a play on the whole Axis schtick from WWII, calling themselves something like the Axis Powers. Only problem is, the Baron couldn't compete with the Road Warriors back in the AWA, and he couldn't compete with them even when joined by the Koloff family, so he was a major weak link.

Ric Flair vs territory babyfaces ---I loved Flair's gimmick of going into territories and taking on the regional babyfaces. Of course, this was a mainstay in wrestling at the time, as others had done it as well, but Flair's schtick was far more appealing than the others (Although Nick Bockwinkel did well, at times, during his championship reign for the AWA. I loved Bockwinkel's brief feud with a then-babyface Dr. D David Schultz in Stampede, the Calgary territory)......Of course, Flair's feud with the Von Erichs was great, but he also had some interesting clashes with Jerry Lawler (in Memphis), Barry Windham (in Florida), etc.....

Jerry Lawler vs Jimmy Hart's crew ---The main reason I love this feud is due to Jimmy Hart. He's one of the greatest managers in pro wrestling history, just purely entertaining to watch. For all of Vince McMahon's mistakes, I think his biggest mistake was not using Jimmy Hart to his full potential in the WWF........Anyway, the Lawler-Hart feud included great stuff, such as the whole Andy Kaufman run, and bringing in the likes of King Kong Bundy, Stan Hansen, and others to destroy Lawler and his friends.

Midnight Express vs various teams (Road Warriors, R&R, etc...) ---The Midnight Express, when they consisted of "Beautiful" Bobby Eaton and "Loverboy" Dennis Condrey, had fantastic feuds with several major tag teams. One important factor was the mic skills of Jim Cornette, another was the fluid ring-work of both Eaton & Condrey.....Their feuds with the Road Warriors, Rock'N Roll Express, Fantastics, and I think even a brief run against The Fabulous Ones, are all excellent stuff.

Stan Hansen vs Austin Idol ---Love this run, where Hansen runs roughshod over Austin Idol, due to Jimmy Hart bringing Hansen in. Of course, this included the great tag match of Stan Hansen & Jesse Ventura vs Jerry Lawler & Austin Idol.

Stan Hansen vs Rick Martel ---I'll never forget this feud, when Stan Hansen, the monster heel, came into the AWA to rip the belt off Rick Martel. Martel made a few babyface attacks on Hansen when Hansen would rip on Martel during interviews, then they had that great double DQ match at Super Clash. Probably one of the best brawls in pro wrestling that I've seen......The match where Hansen beats Martel for the title was somewhat anti-climactic. Similar to The Iron Sheik vs Bob Backlund, they angled an "injury" to have the babyface champion lose the title via submission (Although Backlund saved a little face by having his manager throw in the towel, while Martel lost face by submitting on his own).

Garvin Brothers (Ronnie & "Gorgeous" Jimmy) vs Rougeaus ---A fantastic rivalry in the Quebec territory. The Garvin Brothers barged into Quebec for a short run and did the unthinkable, attacking the Rougeaus (Including their father) and beating them down. This was huge in Quebec, as no one had done something like this to the babyface Quebec family.......Of course, this preceded the Rougeaus Brothers run in the WWF.

Sting vs Great Muta ---An excellent rivalry which should have gone longer & better. Lots of build-up, and the initial match was fantastic. The two super hero-esque characters going into battle.......Bad thing is, politics ruined Muta's career in WCW, as he should've had a much better, elongated run than he did (Including more great matches with Sting)........Of course, another factor which limited Muta's run was injuries due to his exciting style. He became somewhat limited around the same time committee politics started to get in his way.

original Four Horsemen vs Dusty & crew ---Fantastic stuff, primarily due to what comprised of the Four Horsemen. Ric Flair, The Minnesota Wrecking Crew (Ole was always great on the mic, and Arn proved to be as well), and also when Tully Blanchard fully became excellent on the mic as well.

Dynamic Duo (Gino Hernandez & Chris Adams, and originally with Jake Roberts in the beginning) vs Von Erichs ---Great stuff, from Adams turning on the Von Erichs, to a young Jake Roberts teaming with Gino & the turncoat Adams, and the great Gary Hart managing the team. Roberts was a bit raw on the mic back then, but Gino was excellent. I always felt Adams was overrated, both in ring-work and mic skills, but at times he could look good. IMO, Gino was the main reason this entire thing worked out so well. Without him, it would've been another basic heel vs Von Erich situation, albeit with Adams's betrayal.......What somewhat ruined the whole angle was the lame Stella Mae bits. Without her, this angle would have been far better.

PYTs vs "Iceman" King Parsons ---Another good feud in WCCW. The PYTs (a heel team of Koko Ware & Norvell Austin who would enter the ring with Michael Jackson's song "Pretty Young Thing," and both wearing "Beat It" jackets) against "Iceman" King Parsons and whoever he could get to tag with him. It went from "Rock 'N Roll" Buck Zumhoffe to Sweet Brown Sugar (Skip Young), to a few others......What augmented the rivalry was a heel "Hacksaw" Butch Reed joining up with the PYTs at times, and Kerry Von Erich joining up to go against Reed.........Of course, the PYT gimmick first emerged in Memphis, but I felt the WCCW run was far better than the initial Memphis run.

Sheepherders vs Bobby Jaggers ---A fun rivalry where "The Hangman" Bobby Jaggers initially teamed with the Sheepherders. Cousin Luke was angered by Jaggers getting pinned in their tag match, and blasts him with the flag pole of the New Zealand flag. He then viciously attacks Jaggers again during an interview.....The rivalry was great, due to the mic skills of Cousin Jonathan (Jonathan Boyd), Jaggers turning babyface and joining up with the Southwest face crew. Eventually, other great things happened with the Sheepherders, such as having The Iron Sheik & Adrian Street joining them.

Hulk Hogan vs Roddy Piper/Paul Orndorff/Magnificent Muraco ---Legendary feud, not much needs to be said.

Magnificent Muraco vs Jimmy Snuka ---Another one where not much needs to be said.

Mr. Perfect vs Bret Hart ---Two of the greatest workers going head-to-head in an excellent feud. The "Mr. Perfect" gimmick was when Curt Hennig was in his prime, although he did have that legit back injury somewhat limiting him during part of the feud. Even with the injury, they had better matches together than almost anything else that was going on in the North American scene at the time.

[Blueferret]

They would've done this in 1997, while Bret was turning heel/anti-American. By the time "Mr. McMahon" was born (after the screwjob) it was pretty well known by even the casualest of fans.

But before then, it was always "known" that Vince was in charge - those who knew the business knew, casual fans might but it never much meant anything one way or the other. And whenever Vince was in the line of fire (like when Piper hit him with a chair in '91 during his feud with Flair) it was treated as a big hubbub, where even kids would get the implied impression that Vince was much more important than the commentator thing.

Plus guys like Piper and Ventura and Lawler would say little things here and there to acknowledge it to get a tongue in cheek reaction out of anyone who "got it."

Heck, Ventura would on occassion mention his lawyer - with a "Who?" or "Oh, that guy, don't start" kind of reaction from Vince.

There was a sports illustrated article in 1991 stating he owned the WWF and it quotes a Forbes article from '88

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...9010/index.htm

[Alex]

Oh 1980s wwf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQh4gYVXn0Q