B.P.R.D. Hell on Earth: Russia

[Jason Abbadon]

I'd say Guy Davis isn't necessarily about heavy blacks at all. He's about using stylisation optimally, for conveying what needs conveying - which typically wouldn't be "look how juicily *realistic* I can draw stuff".

Sorry, I was unclear there- not "lush" in the way Mignola uses heavy blacks, but just that there was SO MUCH in every one of Guy's pages.
Stuff like The Dead probably has as much ink there as Mike's ink-drenched stuff- but it's all detail, not the lack of it.
That's not anything aginst Tyler's stuff- it's just an ajustment.
Tyler's stuff is nicely detailed in stuff like the street scene in Russia #1, but much more sparce in places like the conference room.

And the "dots-for-eyes" is not something uncommon for Guy Davis or Ba/Moon or either Mignola for that matter.

No. -not for closeups it's not. Not stuff happening in the near distance of the frame.
That was my big gripe for Monsters, but most of that is not present in Russia (at least not with main characters).
Eyes are the strongest part of a face when conveying emotion, and the lack of that really detracts from the overall quality of the work. There's no stress or anger or anything in a pair of buttons on a face.

If say, Kate suddenly had Tintin features, there'd be a lot more people complaining- as long as it's just some shlub Russian giving Kate a hard time, it's not too bad....and again, I really do like the rest of it, so it's not as though I'm just trashing the guy.

Maybe the eye definition signifies a character's importance.

That's my opinion, and while yours may differ, please remember that only my viewpoint matters.

[Kees_L]

Sorry, I was unclear there- not "lush" in the way Mignola uses heavy blacks, but just that there was SO MUCH in every one of Guy's pages.
Stuff like The Dead probably has as much ink there as Mike's ink-drenched stuff- but it's all detail, not the lack of it.
That's not anything aginst Tyler's stuff- it's just an ajustment.
Tyler's stuff is nicely detailed in stuff like the street scene in Russia #1, but much more sparce in places like the conference room.

No. -not for closeups it's not. Not stuff happening in the near distance of the frame.
That was my big gripe for Monsters, but most of that is not present in Russia (at least not with main characters).
Eyes are the strongest part of a face when conveying emotion, and the lack of that really detracts from the overall quality of the work. There's no stress or anger or anything in a pair of buttons on a face.

If say, Kate suddenly had Tintin features, there'd be a lot more people complaining- as long as it's just some shlub Russian giving Kate a hard time, it's not too bad....and again, I really do like the rest of it, so it's not as though I'm just trashing the guy.

Maybe the eye definition signifies a character's importance.

Sure, you're not thrashing the guy. It's your opinion. We're just talking.

But the way you're describing either Guy Davis' or Crook's art, or Hergé's for that matter, how it would be a thing of close-ups VS distance shots, dots or realistical details - I don't really see that as any leading thing because I'd think the intricate storytelling would be coming first in the case of Hellboy or the BPRD.

Most if not all sequential art will have in common is that it's all stylised, it's all toned down in some way, in order for getting displayed into a general graphical language, in which stuff can be rendered and articulated and interpreted vividly both as structurally consistently.

But still it seems possible to be making things work by using just any form or style or route to be suiting any particular artist.

I'd think that Guy Davis's BPRD would seem far more ruthlessly "stylised" or "languagafied" a form than any other artist, where closeups or character importance hardly ever seems to have stuff made more detailed than distant stuff, all very sketchy and toned down seeming, maybe like Hergé although I'd see more Tardi myself - because of the sketchiness.
But when I start reading Davis (or Tardi, or Hergé), then all comes to work, as vividly and significantly as the most wonderful or gratifying and enticing art ever. So it seems the reading, the storytelling and panelling that does the most. Not from being detailed or realistical or full - maybe more rather the opposite, as if from having enough room and enough suggestable or interpretable space to be working just in the best possible way.

Where Mignola art would be a fully different story I'd feel. I'd say Mignola would for the longest time have seemed to force himself to embody both as redefine whatever he took on. Be it his own favorite artists, be it common superhero art, be it the nifty elegance of particularly buff adventure stuff. Embody and redefine. As thoroughly as no other - like Moebius or Frazetta. Completely unique. With a scope from detailed to less detailed, realistical to more stylised - any scope in working order at any time.
But a ways into Hellboy things started to fall into place more and more: like the art became more and more its own thing. Sort of running gags like 'no-one will recognize what the hand will actually look like', or 'yes on his forehead is sitting a pair of goggles, not horns indeed', or 'no-one will recognize my women', all that seemed to be fading away, like Hellboy's worlds would have emerged to never go away again.

Whereas Corben's art or Fegredo's art or Ba/Moon or Alexander's art would all be totally different stories.

My point being how among all that, among all that difference and variety, albeit all intent on but lush and intricate storytelling primarily, among such Tyler Crook would fit perfectly. Because I'd say anyone can see or at least anticipate how invested his stuff will be into storytelling and moods and all that. Just like Davis or Mignola or Corben, only different naturally.

[Jason Abbadon]

All good points to be sure and honestly, I'd be remiss if I did not mention that Guy's art made me cringe when I first saw it- I was so...acclimated...to Mike's moody and dark art and having to sorta be in a "Hellboy mood" to get into it that the first story I read with Guy's art (the one with the small town and the drowned "witches") threw me.
Guy's a great artist but, as I have issues with Tyler's eyes, I still kinda hate Guy's wide mouths- and Mike's skulls!
Blasphemy, I know! It's that they have no jaws- just a circle of teeth with nothing of a jaw!

I'm a terrible person, I admit it.

If the story is there (and it certainlly is with BPRD), even passable art (and Tyler's is far more than passable) will do in the long term.

The flip side of that is great art with cliche or just plain bad plot, which makes for initial excitment, but not good reading (lots of that in the two big companies right now).

[Kees_L]

All good points to be sure and honestly, I'd be remiss if I did not mention that Guy's art made me cringe when I first saw it- I was so...acclimated...to Mike's moody and dark art and having to sorta be in a "Hellboy mood" to get into it that the first story I read with Guy's art (the one with the small town and the drowned "witches") threw me.
Guy's a great artist but, as I have issues with Tyler's eyes, I still kinda hate Guy's wide mouths- and Mike's skulls!
Blasphemy, I know! It's that they have no jaws- just a circle of teeth with nothing of a jaw!

I'm a terrible person, I admit it.

If the story is there (and it certainlly is with BPRD), even passable art (and Tyler's is far more than passable) will do in the long term.

The flip side of that is great art with cliche or just plain bad plot, which makes for initial excitment, but not good reading (lots of that in the two big companies right now).

I wasn't saying the BPRD would only depend on having the story be good or decent - I'd be saying for the Mignola-related titles the story gets delivered and articulated by the art and the plot COMBINED. Truely and magnificently, since the artists are allowed if not made to be assisting in such as best they can. The story depends on great art and great panelling, great storytelling - most graphically.
The story isn't comprised by *writing* alone, for any good comics any artists will be as much storytellers as any writers - and they're best to be working as combined with their good traits taking the forefront.

In order to have creator-owned material just be better suited and more inspired and better invested into delivering quality content, more so than even the most popularized or most monopolizing corporately owned material. As simple as 1+1=3, since the inspiredness would be handing the extra point.

And you're not a bad person, as far as I can see (since this is the internet which is pretty much blind in many respects).
But this is a forum open to anyone. And it might be good to note even if this wouldn't be a fan forum - or any ruthlessly censored kinda environment since opinion will be free for all - but it seems kind of weird to come online upon reading your favorite titles for then to share with the world or more specifically other potential readers including possibly the makers - how "by heck and golly you wouldn't even be feeling too disappointed, amazing..."

Frankly, I don't think that being a fan of something would be forcing anyone to suddenly have to get stuck on remaining critical only as by assessing things how they'd be feeling to be. You prove that yourself: first you thought Davis looked bad in ways but once you opened up to his stuff enough you became capable of appreciating it.

I feel it won't be that any fan would be having the duty - as like a curse or plight - to be educating the creators into how they should be doing their job. They are to do their job, as how they would - and however they'd be reaching any fans as strikingly or enticingly is what would be wonderful.
I feel that being a fan of something would never be forcing any such creators to be delivering just completely to any particular wishes, or only their own.

I'd say a fan is someone who likes what they like and therefor they'd do well to be reading what they like - as otherwise they might not like it - even where stuff would still be perfectly likable.
I'd say that any getting stuck on things would be best avoided. That's all I'm saying.

Although I do think I said enough for a bit so lemme hush my mug up for a while, to say it like the good reverend Ralph Stanley went singin' it .

[Jason Abbadon]

I feel that being a fan of something would never be forcing any such creators to be delivering just completely to any particular wishes, or only their own.

While I agree wholeheartedly, some fans sorta...lose objectivity.
Art can vary and styles can change radicaly over time (Mikes has become more graphic, for example, since his Marvel/DC days), but some fans decide they LOVE an artist or writer and seem to feel obligated to defending their "honor" from even the most delicate critique.

I feel critique is essential to an artist staying at the top of their ability and getting better- it's the antidote to the ego-inflating praise us in fandom can gush.

That being said, I really wish I'd begged Mike to draw one of his damn jawless skulls in my BPRD hardcover when he signed it back in August!

[Mechano]

Just read the first issue... it seemed really short. Not a lot happened.

[Middenway]

Just read the first issue... it seemed really short. Not a lot happened.

I find that with all issues, which is probably why I like trades so much. It's over before it begins. I wish it were practical to go straight to trade and skip the issues altogether, but I don't think it's a wise business plan.

[thwhtGuardian]

I find that with all issues, which is probably why I like trades so much. It's over before it begins. I wish it were practical to go straight to trade and skip the issues altogether, but I don't think it's a wise business plan.

That idea will be put to the test soon won't it?

House of the Living dead comes out in November if I'm not mistaken, so I guess we'll see how Hellboy fairs as a graphic novel.

[Middenway]

That idea will be put to the test soon won't it?

House of the Living dead comes out in November if I'm not mistaken, so I guess we'll see how Hellboy fairs as a graphic novel.

I'll be interested to see how that unfolds. Although when I said trades, I meant to refer to the numbered ones with 5-6 issues worth of stuff in them... ones that would fit right in next to the existing trades. But a shorter hardcover, I'm not so sure about. It worked for The Amazing Screw-on Head and Other Curious Objects, but that was really something special. But then maybe House of the Living Dead is too. We'll have to wait and see.

[thwhtGuardian]

I'll be interested to see how that unfolds. Although when I said trades, I meant to refer to the numbered ones with 5-6 issues worth of stuff in them... ones that would fit right in next to the existing trades. But a shorter hardcover, I'm not so sure about. It worked for The Amazing Screw-on Head and Other Curious Objects, but that was really something special. But then maybe House of the Living Dead is too. We'll have to wait and see.

I would have preferred House of the Living dead be longer much like the trades but I'm excited for it none the less.

[Mechano]

I find that with all issues, which is probably why I like trades so much. It's over before it begins. I wish it were practical to go straight to trade and skip the issues altogether, but I don't think it's a wise business plan.

i've started to move more and more to the digital... i live over two hours from the nearest comic shop, and it can sometimes be over a month after the release date that I actually get a hard copy.

they released the digital version yesterday, so i snatched it up.

On a side note, reading comics on your phone isn't exactly an optimal experience... but I couldn't wait long enough to read it at home on my laptop.

[Middenway]

I would have preferred House of the Living dead be longer much like the trades but I'm excited for it none the less.

Same. It should be interesting.

[Gary_B]

While I agree wholeheartedly, some fans sorta...lose objectivity.
Art can vary and styles can change radicaly over time (Mikes has become more graphic, for example, since his Marvel/DC days), but some fans decide they LOVE an artist or writer and seem to feel obligated to defending their "honor" from even the most delicate critique.

I feel critique is essential to an artist staying at the top of their ability and getting better- it's the antidote to the ego-inflating praise us in fandom can gush.

That being said, I really wish I'd begged Mike to draw one of his damn jawless skulls in my BPRD hardcover when he signed it back in August!

I can only speak from my own perspective (obviously). I spent over 20 years studying and supporting myself as an artist, and critique (even bald criticism) is a valuable tool for assessing your own efforts. But ultimately the artist has to measure the critique against the intent of the creative exercise. If the critique comes from a place of ignorance or bias it isn't really worth the artist paying much attention to it. Criticism must come from an informed perspective for it to have value.

[Middenway]

I can only speak from my own perspective (obviously). I spent over 20 years studying and supporting myself as an artist, and critique (even bald criticism) is a valuable tool for assessing your own efforts. But ultimately the artist has to measure the critique against the intent of the creative exercise. If the critique comes from a place of ignorance or bias it isn't really worth the artist paying much attention to it. Criticism must come from an informed perspective for it to have value.

True. Just think of the people that thought Rob Liefeld was a more talented artist than Mike Mignola because he was more "detailed".

[thwhtGuardian]

True. Just think of the people that thought Rob Liefeld was a more talented artist than Mike Mignola because he was more "detailed".

We call those people clinically insane.