Doctor Who thread III: Mad men in a blue box. Everything Whovian. (SPOILERS)

[Stressfactor]

Okay, this is going to sound weird BUT....

I've been thinking about "Survival" on my drive home because of the news out of Great Britain about the riots.

I was listening to NPR and there were some who wanted to blame race and there were some who wanted to blame delinquency and there were some who wanted to blame austerity measures and the hopelessness of young people who think that they have nowhere to go and no way out and....

Well......

"Survival".


For as imperfect as the story was there was a LOT that the writers were trying to do there and one of the things was to show where Ace came from and what shaped her and part of that was the hopelessness of the housing development she lived in. Also, the idea that the youth there lived by their own set of laws and it was a kind of 'eat or be eaten' mentality. A kind of idea that the strong and the clever merely took what they could when they wanted to.

It's rather interesting to see and hear these ideas being revisited today.

[Matt]

I actually watched Survival over the weekend and you're right.
It is a very common theme throughout literature, certainly dating back to tales such as Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn and probably much earlier.

As for Survival itself, I thought it had a great story that was let down by some of the special effects (as per the norm at the time). The Cheetah People looked fake but they would always be hard to pull off with the resources available. McCoy and Ainsley seemed to play off each other rather well.

The only things I didn't like about it were:

• The jarring inclusion of Hale and Pace.
• The motorcycle duel seemed really forced.
• The Doctor's odd way of returning to Earth at the end of his fight with The Master.

[Spike-X]

The jarring inclusion of Hale and Pace.

The what?!?!

[Stressfactor]

I felt it was trying to shoehorn in a little bit too much.

There were the themes of "might makes right".

The themes of how little separates man from animal.

The encouragement of violent behaviors among humanity -- for example, that the only way to get by is to be tougher and more violent than the next guy.

And then the theme of "home" and where one truly belongs.

Actually Matt, if you look at it, how the Doctor got back after his fight with the Master is eminently clear.....

The Doctor says that those who have started to transform have the power to cross the dimensional boundary.

The Doctor has started to transform.

And as we have seen, the strongest instinct is the homing instinct. Where does the Doctor turn up? Right outside the TARDIS. His home.

But sadly, that last idea is the one that gets buried even though it's significant to Ace in the wrap-up to the episode. Ace calls the TARDIS her home. She's severed the last of her ties to Earth. Not Perivale, not England, not even Earth is her home anymore... the TARDIS is.

The idea is that "home" is what one decides it is. "Home" is where one feels most oneself. And, like Ace, the Doctor has long ago shrugged off Gallifrey -- it is not his home -- the TARDIS is.

[Captain Jim]

When was the Doctor supposed to give River the enhanced Sonic Screwdriver she uses in her first appearance? If their lives are running at opposite ends then he should've given to her sometime during the Angels 2-parter.

That wouldn't make sense; that was only the second time (from his perspective) that the Doctor encountered her.

Yeah, I never took the whole "opposite directions" thing as being fixed. And while I haven't tried to figure out the timelines really, or looked up the work of those who have, it doesn't SEEM like they're meeting in exactly the opposite order each time.

They haven't. For instance, the Angels two-parter was the second time from his perspective, but from her perspective, she saw him in The Pandorica Opens before she saw him in the Angels two-parter.

[Charles RB]

The other interesting thing about Survival is that the aliens are coming to a recognisable council estate, further grounding Ace as working-class Londoner - and what's the very 'next' episode in 2005? Aliens coming to a council-estate and working class teenage Londoners.

Not as much as you might think, from what I understand.

IIRC, he's on record as saying "I had no idea what I was going to do until later".

I actually found my old collection of these in my garage recently. I've been wondering what to do with them.

Read them! You know you want to...

[Matt]

The what?!?!

Hale and Pace appear in Survival as a pair of shop keepers who get into a discussion about survival of the fittest - running from lions and being faster than your friend, etc.

[dupersuper]

Hale and Pace appear in Survival as a pair of shop keepers who get into a discussion about survival of the fittest - running from lions and being faster than your friend, etc.

I loved that show as a kid.

[king mob]

Okay, this is going to sound weird BUT....

I've been thinking about "Survival" on my drive home because of the news out of Great Britain about the riots.

I was listening to NPR and there were some who wanted to blame race and there were some who wanted to blame delinquency and there were some who wanted to blame austerity measures and the hopelessness of young people who think that they have nowhere to go and no way out and....

Well......

"Survival".


For as imperfect as the story was there was a LOT that the writers were trying to do there and one of the things was to show where Ace came from and what shaped her and part of that was the hopelessness of the housing development she lived in. Also, the idea that the youth there lived by their own set of laws and it was a kind of 'eat or be eaten' mentality. A kind of idea that the strong and the clever merely took what they could when they wanted to.

It's rather interesting to see and hear these ideas being revisited today.

The thing is the riots across the country have multiple reasons, but we've got to get away from the idea of people rising out of their class and leaving people behind them. That's the difference between Scottish socialism (Rona Munro is a very Scottish socialist writer) and it's southern counterpart which tries to raise people out of their class as a person rather than everyone as a whole.

[ChrisIII]

Some fans have said that Survival is sort of a proto-new series story. The whole council estate thing, the focus more on Ace's past and family, and I was kind of reminded of Survival by "Fear Her" due to the people vanishing in the midst of regular activities.


It's interesting that the Master's more animalistic state in this is kind of similar to what happens to him in End of Time (At least the first part). Although Simm's master of course had weird powers and stuff, and all Ainley does is get weird eyes and teeth. In both the Master's fate is unknown, although both have him presumabely on a planet about to die.


The cheetah stuff that affects the Master and Ace I believe also continues in the novels, with Ace sometimes manifesting that ability and the Master as well. There's also a visual nod to Survival at the beginning of the TV movie, with the shot of the cat eyes.

[ChrisIII]

Been watching the finale of Trial of a Time Lord....while the first part shows some promise (Although it retcons the Matrix into a physical realm), it totally falls apart in the second half. I'm aware of the problems with Robert Holmes dying, Eric Saward leaving and Pip and Jane Baker having to quickly wrap everything up. Not to mention that it ends on a cliffhanger.


For a guy who supposedly represents the dark side of the Doctor, I see very little of the Doctor in the Valeyard (His disguise Mr. Popplewick actually seems more Doctorish). He's really just a one-dimensional villain at the end. The Dream Lord, on the other hand from Amy's Choice, seems to better reflect an 'evil' Doctor IMO. It'd be interesting if they connected the two somehow, but I doubt that's going to happen....

[LordEd1976]

Been watching the finale of Trial of a Time Lord....while the first part shows some promise (Although it retcons the Matrix into a physical realm), it totally falls apart in the second half. I'm aware of the problems with Robert Holmes dying, Eric Saward leaving and Pip and Jane Baker having to quickly wrap everything up. Not to mention that it ends on a cliffhanger.


For a guy who supposedly represents the dark side of the Doctor, I see very little of the Doctor in the Valeyard (His disguise Mr. Popplewick actually seems more Doctorish). He's really just a one-dimensional villain at the end. The Dream Lord, on the other hand from Amy's Choice, seems to better reflect an 'evil' Doctor IMO. It'd be interesting if they connected the two somehow, but I doubt that's going to happen....

One of the problems for me was the Master showing up out of nowhere. At least Glitz was seen in the first part of the storyline. The Master just shows up out of the blue without any hint that he was around

[king mob]

One of the problems for me was the Master showing up out of nowhere. At least Glitz was seen in the first part of the storyline. The Master just shows up out of the blue without any hint that he was around

Sadly Robert Holmes was ill when he was writing it, and Eric Saward had to piece together the script together which meant a lot of it made no bloody sense.

[Charles RB]

And then Pip and Jane Baker had to finish it without (legally) being allowed to look at what Holmes had planned in Part 2.

[Captain Clarkie]

and it's southern counterpart which tries to raise people out of their class as a person rather than everyone as a whole.

I know we shouldn't do this here, but the Tolpuddle Martyrs and The Diggers beg to differ.