George R.R. Martin's A DANCE WITH DRAGONS - Spoiled Discussion

[lomiller]

While I'm just as eager to Cersei get killed in the most violent way, I think that in the end she will still be standing. She's a survivor, as the last book showed.

I don’t think they show that at all. In fact they seem to suggest the only reason why she’s made it this far is that she’s a useful idiot in other people’s plans.

Besides, her death and the fact that all three of her children will die before that happens has already been prophesized/foreshadowed

[CaptainCanada]

Yeah, I don't see how Cersei survives. Martin dedicated the last two books to showing how incompetent she actually is.

[Sheldon]

Yeah, I don't see how Cersei survives. Martin dedicated the last two books to showing how incompetent she actually is.

She's a goner for sure, but I think her demise will be really drawn out and she will end up taking 1/2 of westeros to ruin in the process.

[lomiller]

She's a goner for sure, but I think her demise will be really drawn out and she will end up taking 1/2 of westeros to ruin in the process.

Maggy the Frog's Prophecy seems to spell out Cersie’s demise pretty clearly.

"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.
"Never. You will wed the king."

"I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.
"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Valonqar is a Valyrian word that more or less means little brother/younger brother, so it’s probably Tyrion, but Jamie is actually a few min younger than Cersie as well. Since some Valyrian words are not gender specific (same word for prince and princess for example) some people have suggested it could mean someone else’s little sister I.E. Arya but while I’d like that it seems less likely.

[Shellhead]

Maggy the Frog's Prophecy seems to spell out Cersie’s demise pretty clearly.





Valonqar is a Valyrian word that more or less means little brother/younger brother, so it’s probably Tyrion, but Jamie is actually a few min younger than Cersie as well. Since some Valyrian words are not gender specific (same word for prince and princess for example) some people have suggested it could mean someone else’s little sister I.E. Arya but while I’d like that it seems less likely.

I haven't looked at that prophecy for a while. Because we were getting it from Cersei's viewpoint, we were guided towards the conclusion that she would be cast down by Margaery. But it also works if she is cast down by Dany. Your suggestion that Jaime could be the valonqar is interesting. We have a long wait to see what happens with Jaime, Brienne and the Brotherhood.

[lomiller]

I haven't looked at that prophecy for a while. Because we were getting it from Cersei's viewpoint, we were guided towards the conclusion that she would be cast down by Margaery. But it also works if she is cast down by Dany.

I never really thought it could be anyone but Dany and that Margaery was just another example of Cerei getting it wrong.

[the_coldest_sun]

I've seen it also suggested that the manner of death isn't literal and that the valonqar won't actually strangle her but be the cause of her death. The theory is that since Cersei's champion in her trial-by-combat is Ser Gregor Clegane (posing as Ser Robert Strong undead or otherwise) that it would be fitting if the Faith Militant's champion is the rehabbed & reborn Sandor Clegane, bringing the relationship of the two brothers full circle. In AFFC, it's hinted that Sandor had recovered from his wounds and fever at the monestary on the Quiet Isle and is working as a Novice/Gravedigger. This seems to fit nicely that he would champion for a religious faction when the old Hound wouldn't given a care, plus it gives him the opportunity to do what he's always dreamed about: kill his brother. Sandor is Gregor's little brother and if he were to win, it would certainly mean Cersei's death making Sandor the valonqar.

On the one hand, it all seems to fall into place smoothly, her siblings were merely red herrings and the readers are thrown for a loop. Perhaps its too smooth, and we all know that isn't GRRM's way of going about things. Other factors to consider (assuming Sandor is alive and infact the Gravedigger) why would a reborn Sandor whose supposedly found inner-peace and calm willingly choose to fulfill the violent vengeful dream from his old life? Why make the Hound go from having a rough and violent life of hate and anger, finding peace and a new devotion only to doubleback and return to violence? Also, the Gravedigger was described as being lame, suffering from some leg injury. Given the timeline, I don't believe he could be fully recovered enough to participate in the combat. Perhaps he's willing to go through with the trial despite the injury but I just cant see it.

If Sandor is the Gravedigger, I actually hope we never see or hear from him again. The Hound is one of my top 3 characters from ASOIAF and, while I really like the above theory, I personally feel where we last seen him and knowing he life he leads now is a perfect ending to his character.

[Meehl]

Sandor can't just saunter out of the story. He has to come back and save Sansa :)

[jediracer]

Gregor can't just saunter out of the story. He has to come back and save Sansa :)

You mean Sandor (?)

If Sandor is the Gravedigger, I actually hope we never see or hear from him again. The Hound is one of my top 3 characters from ASOIAF and, while I really like the above theory, I personally feel where we last seen him and knowing he life he leads now is a perfect ending to his character.

So what do you figure are the chances that he will be appointed the champion of the Faith Militant and end up facing Un-Gregor in single combat?

[CaptainCanada]

Gregor can't just saunter out of the story. He has to come back and save Sansa :)

That has to be the single-most disturbing ship in the fandom.

I hope Sansa figures her own way out of her current situation - she's lacked agency for so long, it's time for her to start demonstrating some skills.

So what do you figure are the chances that he will be appointed the champion of the Faith Militant and end up facing Un-Gregor in single combat?

I've thought of that scenario before, and it's certainly interesting, though I wonder if it's too neat to actually happen. But if the younger Clegane is alive, that would be a way to bring his desire to slay his brother full-circle, but instead of it just being revenge it would fit into his new monastic life as a holy cause. And certainly, the audience has been set up to believe that Cersei will easily win her "trial", so it's ripe for a subversion of expectations.

[lomiller]

Personally I think unGregor will end up incinerated by a dragon.

Part of what Mirri Maz Duur’s said to Dany goes: “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves”. It’s not clear that this is entirely a prophecy, but it does seem significant, and now that we know the Dothracki sea dries out in Winter and is doing so now, it may be that these lines shouldn’t be take at face value. If unGregor were incinerated the mountains ashes really could blow like leaves in the wind.

This could be a reach on my part though.

[CaptainCanada]

I think that's a bit of a stretch.

The whole "the Hound wants to kill his brother" thing seems a bit too important not to come up again, particularly since he's now even more evil than he was before and Sandor is now (possibly) a penitent monk.

[felix77]

Sorry, i can't really imagine The Hound going that Petinent thing. There has to be another story.

[CaptainCanada]

Sorry, i can't really imagine The Hound going that Petinent thing. There has to be another story.

No, it makes perfect sense from the way the Elder Brother tells it. He's a guy with serious, serious rage issues who finally found a bit of purpose/peace in life. Being the Faith's champion, hypothetically, would be him getting to put his skill as a warrior to a righteous cause, and give him the showdown he always wanted with his brother, but for a different motive.

It makes a ton of thematic sense, but, like I said earlier, it may be a little too neat.

[the_coldest_sun]

Exactly, CaptainCanada! It seems to fall into place perfectly from a storytelling standpoint...but perfect is the key word here.

Felix77, I don't think its really all that far-fetched to believe that the Hound could be "redeemed" of sorts. What I always liked about the Hound was that even though he was a drunken, rage-fueled mess of a man there was SOME underlying sense of honor in that he refused and hated knighthood because of the hypocrisy of other knights he knew personally. Why would a man who likes to get drunk and spit curses and seemingly cut down helpless children care about what other men did because of their titles? That fact that he finds knights behaving as such repulsive shows there's some kind of twisted sense of honor within him. He's willing to commit those acts himself but isn't willing to wear the title of "knight" because in his mind that would diminish nobility of being a knight. That always stuck out in my mind when reading about him.

I pictured him as a kid being similar to Bran, in that he probably looked up to knights and dreamed of being one someday until a terrible, vicious tragedy changed him into something else. Its like a young boy who wants to grow up to become a dutiful police officer to help his community and protect the innocent...but as he got older realized how much corruption there was within his local law enforcement, and realized his idea of what the police stood for was far different from what they actually were. And that also affected him. Despite that, underneath it all, Sandor probably still wanted to uphold what it was to be a true knight and finding peace and purpose within the Faith could actually fulfill that aspect, which would be a brilliant way to take his character. There was always a chance his character could eventually live somewhat honorably, despite the horrors of his past.

Again, I don't swear by this theory but it does seem to make sense from a storytelling perspective but until we actually see what happens, there's no definite proof this how it will go. It's all just speculation (and perhaps wishful thinking). There's probably thousands of directions GRRM could take it.