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  1. #796
    Senior Member the_coldest_sun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlfernswich View Post
    All right what I didn't like was some of the new characters to be given points of view chapters.
    While you're entitled to your respected opinion, I personally didn't mind that at all. This series reminds me of one of my favorite TV shows of all time: Deadwood, which also had a large cast and numerous "view-point" characters. Season 3, for example, introduced a theater troupe that took up a good portion of screen-time, and as David Milch (show creator/writer) said in an interview, were going to play a larger role in the forefront of Season 4 had the show not been cancelled. Milch had said the show wasn't so much about Al Swearengen and Seth Bullock specifically but the camp of Deadwood itself and all those that live there.

    A Song of Ice and Fire is a huge story, not just about the Starks vs Lannisters. I know a lot of readers at this stage in the game would rather Martin put aside the subplots and worldbuilding and just get on with the main plot, but I welcome new characters that give us different perspectives of that world and their place in it and what it means in the long-game of the plot. The Greyjoys were one of my favorite things about AFFC (I'm in the minority, I know) so I loved being in savage, barbarian mind of Victarion. Frog's chapters may have seemed pointless to some but the Martells have lost two of their own--an heir now at that. I don't see them or their armies sitting comfortably in Dorne for long now. Selmy and Connington's chapters serve to give us some back-story to the days of old (answering lingering questions or hinting at answers) while also pushing the story forward.

    I think A Storm of Swords set the bar in this regard and balanced worldbuilding and back-story with story progression quite nicely. I do agree that the pace has slowed significantly during AFFC and ADWD but looking back at them, you'd have to also agree that a lot has transpired within them. You'd also have to look at the long run. Both books can be considered "Act 2" of the entire series, and it's always Act 2 in movies, television, etc that slows the momentum to build the stage for the Final Act (which is TWoW/ADoS). I may be optimistic but I greatly feel that the last two books will return to ACoK/ASoS-style pacing, now that the stage has been set.
    Last edited by the_coldest_sun; 07-20-2013 at 06:43 PM.

  2. #797
    Senior Member Sheldon's Avatar
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    Two years out from first reading it, I think I'm going to try and read it again and see if my opinions have changed.

    Much of my frustration last book was with the Dany storyline, where I felt certain things I was expecting like Tyrion and Dany meeting never happened. I think I got to the end and realized that there would be at least 3 years before reading more and felt frustrated. Where I previously hoped that Dany would make it to westeros last book, my feeling now is that Dany doesn't make it to westeros until the last book, and that book will be entirely a battle against the Others. The next book will be 1/2 clearing the deck, and 1/2 setting the stage to get everyone who needs to be there in westeros.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Winds of Winter ends with Dany finally setting foot on Westeros.

  3. #798
    Elder Member Winslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_coldest_sun View Post
    I may be optimistic but I greatly feel that the last two books will return to ACoK/ASoS-style pacing, now that the stage has been set.
    I hope you're right, but I remain skeptical. Here's the trend in number of POVs/book:

    A Game of Thrones: 8
    A Clash of kings: 9
    A Storm of Swords: 10
    A Feast for Crows: 12
    A Dance with Dragons: 16


    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Two years out from first reading it, I think I'm going to try and read it again and see if my opinions have changed.

    Much of my frustration last book was with the Dany storyline, where I felt certain things I was expecting like Tyrion and Dany meeting never happened. I think I got to the end and realized that there would be at least 3 years before reading more and felt frustrated. Where I previously hoped that Dany would make it to westeros last book, my feeling now is that Dany doesn't make it to westeros until the last book, and that book will be entirely a battle against the Others. The next book will be 1/2 clearing the deck, and 1/2 setting the stage to get everyone who needs to be there in westeros.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Winds of Winter ends with Dany finally setting foot on Westeros.
    Unless Martin get an editor that is willing to get him to scale back on some of the growth of POVs, I doubt we'll see any satisfying plot resolution (or the end of the series).

    I am guess the TV series will finish the series before the prose.

  4. #799
    Senior Member Sheldon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winslow View Post
    I hope you're right, but I remain skeptical. Here's the trend in number of POVs/book:

    A Game of Thrones: 8
    A Clash of kings: 9
    A Storm of Swords: 10
    A Feast for Crows: 12
    A Dance with Dragons: 16

    Unless Martin get an editor that is willing to get him to scale back on some of the growth of POVs, I doubt we'll see any satisfying plot resolution (or the end of the series).

    I am guess the TV series will finish the series before the prose.
    He has said that he does not plan on adding any more POVs for the remainder of the series. So as I said I think this book will be clearing the deck, with a significant chunk of characters biting the dust, or only having one or two chapters (like Bran). Many characters are converging on each other, and I wouldn't be surprised if many do not survive.

    Here is a list of POV characters (stolen from iceandfire). I've added some notes/speculation by some of the characters.
    Tyrion Lannister: 9 chapters in AGoT, 15 in ACoK, 10 in ASoS, 12 in ADWD.
    Jon Snow: 9 chapters in AGoT, 8 in ACoK, 12 in ASoS, 13 in ADWD.
    Arya Stark: 5 chapters in AGoT, 10 in ACoK, 13 in ASoS, 3 in AFFC, 2 in ADWD, 1 confirmed in TWoW.
    Daenerys Targaryen: 10 chapters in AGoT, 5 in ACoK, 6 in ASoS, 10 in ADWD.
    Catelyn Stark: 11 chapters in AGoT, 7 in ACoK, 7 in ASoS. GRRM Said NO MORE POVs FROM HER
    Sansa Stark: 6 chapters in AGoT, 8 in ACoK, 7 in ASoS, 3 in AFFC, 1 confirmed in TWoW.
    Bran Stark: 7 chapters in AGoT, 7 in ACoK, 4 in ASoS, 3 in ADWD.
    Jaime Lannister: 9 chapters in ASoS, 7 in AFFC, 1 in ADWD.
    Eddard Stark: 15 chapters in AGoT.DEAD
    Theon Greyjoy: 6 chapters in ACoK, 7 in ADWD, 1 confirmed in TWoW. He and Asha will be used to tell Stannis' story
    Davos Seaworth: 3 chapters in ACoK, 6 in ASoS, 4 in ADWD.
    Cersei Lannister: 10 chapters in AFFC, 2 in ADWD.
    Samwell Tarly: 5 chapters in ASoS, 5 in AFFC.
    Brienne of Tarth: 8 chapters in AFFC. I doubt she survives Jaime's encounter with Stoneheart

    Minor POV characters - I doubt if many of them besides Barristan and Arianne will have many chapters.
    10 characters
    Aeron Greyjoy: 2 chapters in AFFC, 1 confirmed in TWoW.
    Asha Greyjoy: 1 chapter in AFFC, 3 in ADWD.
    Victarion Greyjoy: 2 in AFFC, 2 in ADWD. Once he arrives in Meereen, there will be Barristan, Tyrion and eventually Dany POVs
    Areo Hotah: 1 in AFFC, 1 in ADWD. As usual he will basically be used to say what Doran is doing
    Arianne Martell: 2 in AFFC, 1 confirmed in TWoW.
    Arys Oakheart: 1 in AFFC. dead
    Jon Connington: 2 in ADWD. spoilers:
    with Arriane (GRRM has read a few of her chapters at conventions) traveling to meet up with Aegon, I doubt we see many chapters from him. He will likely die from Greyscale, and she'll be used to explain what is going on with Aegon
    end of spoilers
    Melisandre of Asshai: 1 in ADWD. She'll be used to explain what is happening to Jon Snow
    Quentyn Martell: 4 chapters in ADWD.Dead
    Barristan Selmy: 4 chapters in ADWD, 2 confirmed in TWoW.

  5. #800
    New Member Yeade's Avatar
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    In the selfish interest of garnering a wider audience, I thought I'd share three ASOIAF essays I wrote, primarily about events in ADWD. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking, as these topics have all been discussed at length elsewhere, most originating from the Westeros.org forums, where I'm a semi-regular poster. Still, I hope folks enjoy the links below as good reads, anyways.

    In Defense of Hardhome (2 Parts)
    Great risk and the prospect of high casualties alone aren't sufficient cause to dismiss campaigns with important strategic implications.
    Jon Snow in ADWD: The Case Against Oathbreaking (6 Parts, WIP)
    Since the release of ADWD, opinions on Jon Snow's tenure as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch have become rather polarized, with some arguing that he's a visionary leader beyond any other in ASOIAF thus far, a great king in the making, and others that he's an oathbreaker whose final act of desertion received just punishment from his men. I admit I'm partial to the first view and, in this multipart essay, hope to present a convincing defense of Jon Snow as acting within the limits of his elected office.
    The North Remembers: The Grand Northern Conspiracy (7 Parts + Footnotes, Completed 7/14/13)
    As the theory goes, by the end of ADWD, nearly every northern house is secretly plotting together to restore the Starks to power, playing Stannis and the Boltons against one another with the welcome bonus of killing lots and lots of Freys. What's more, it's speculated that the conspirators don't merely want a Stark in Winterfell but a King in the North again.
    The first Tumblr series is still in progress and, unfortunately, I have no idea when I'll find the motivation to finish the last couple parts. I figure that's no huge loss since the majority of readers like the Grand Northern Conspiracy best. Comments and questions are very welcome at the venue of your choice.

  6. #801
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Yeade,

    As readers, we can easily sympathize with Jon Snow's decisions as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Through his viewpoint, we meet wildlings and find some of them to be likable characters. We see that the Others are a serious threat. And through other viewpoints, we know that there are some really bad people in the Night's Watch and Ramsey Bolton is a bastard in more than one since of the word.

    But try to look clearly at Jon Snow through the eyes of typical members of the Night's Watch. All they expect from a Lord Commander is to supervise defense of the Wall, send out rangers from time to time, and ensure that they continue to receive supplies and recruits from the south. Snow is really young for such a serious responsibility. He just barely won the election, and under some peculiar circumstances. He failed to report for duty for an extended period of time while he was apparently hanging out with wildlings. And then after a fierce battle with those wildlings, he ends up letting them pass through the wall. All of them, and also some giants. And then he offered them free land in the Gift. Jon has a scary wolf companion. He is a bastard, but with an uppity attitude that earned him the nickname Lord Snow. He took sides in a civil war when he was supposed to stay neutral, by offering hospitality to one faction. Many of his actions will likely prove advantageous to the people of Westeros in the long run, but to much of the Watch, those same actions seem to be dangerously radical acts of an impudent youth.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
    Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

  7. #802
    New Member Yeade's Avatar
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    I appreciate the well-reasoned reply, Shellhead, but must say that we disagree on several points.

    First, I think Bowen Marsh's tearful declaration of "for the Watch" has misled many to believe that he acts out of an honorable intent to preserve the institution he's dedicated his life to in the face of Jon's oathbreaking. Setting aside the question of whether political neutrality is a sworn mandate of the Night's Watch at all--as opposed to a convention based on interpretations of the vows and practical concerns such as reassuring the nobility that the once tens of thousands of armed men on the Wall are no threat--this characterization of Marsh as a selfless hero, almost a martyr, runs counter to everything that's known about him. I'm not sure if you read my essay but, in Part 2, I discuss how Marsh's objections to Jon's dealings with Stannis are likely based less on upholding the NW's traditional noninterference and more on his fear of reprisal by the Lannisters' proxies in the North, the Boltons, should the NW be implicated in Stannis's treason against the Iron Throne. Marsh's advice to Jon is not "take no part" but "side with the winners," who he feels will not be Stannis and allies.

    Additionally, Marsh is immovably prejudiced against the wildlings, to the point where he makes patently ridiculous suggestions that amount to strategic suicide. The notion that it'd be perfectly fine to leave the wildlings to die beyond the Wall, for instance. Which not only ignores the fact that more dead means more wights but also that the more belligerent wildlings, like Tormund and the Weeper, would never crawl back to their villages in defeat when they can mass again for do-or-die attacks on the Wall. Marsh is no great shakes as a military commander, anyways, as evidenced by his ASOS performance that costs the NW a hundred men. By ADWD, he's inflexible and averse to any kind of risk, refusing to countenance even hunting parties in the Haunted Forest when this is an obvious solution to the food shortage he bemoans.

    In short, Jon's absolutely right not to heed much of Marsh's so-called counsel, IMO. Being Lord Commander doesn't mean you're obligated to implement the bad ideas of your subordinates. Your subordinates, however, are obligated to obey your orders and without questions.

    Second, so far as we readers know, Marsh heads a grand conspiracy of four men, counting him. Marsh's accomplices are probably sitting with him in the Shieldhall: Wick Whittlestick (confirmed), Left Hand Lew, and Alf of Runnymudd. The first two are stewards and the last, a builder who perhaps nurses a personal grudge against Jon over the death of a friend, Garth Greyfeather, at the hands of the Weeper (Melisandre, ADWD).

    From Jon IV, the NW is pretty evenly divided on Marsh's proposal that the gates be sealed, with the rangers mostly siding against. There's not much information afterwards on what the rank and file think of Jon's decisions, but I believe there are indications that Jon's well respected by his men. For starters, he personally interacts with them every day.

    Jon donned his cloak and strode outside. He made the rounds of Castle Black each day, visiting the men on watch and hearing their reports firsthand, watching Ulmer and his charges at the archery butts, talking with kingsmen and queensmen alike, walking the ice atop the Wall to have a look at the forest. Ghost padded after him, a white shadow at his side. (Jon II, ADWD)

    In Jon VII, the six recruits all choose to take their vows before the weirwoods, despite half coming from regions that don't worship the old gods. Why? My guess is that the younger men rather admire Jon, who's closer to their age and regularly trains with them.

    Quite a few of the points you mention as negatives I see as lending Jon a certain charisma. He's the Bastard of Winterfell, raised in a castle with the trueborn Starks, who are still highly esteemed in the North. He risks his life to spy on the wildlings at Qhorin Halfhand's behest, bedding a spearwife (star-crossed lovers!), but ultimately stays true to his vows, taking command of the undermanned Wall against Mance Rayder. And Ghost? Scary, true, but also really, really cool. Especially with Mormont's raven perched on Jon's shoulder and Longclaw--which I remind you Jon wins by saving the Old Bear's life from the first wight seen south of the Wall in some eight thousand years--strapped across his back. Even Jon's dealings with Stannis and the wildlings reinforce the perception of his power. He's a man who treats equally with kings and, as the wildlings pass the Wall, the clan chiefs offer him tribute one after another.

    Marsh may claim that he represents the men's interests, but the one time a crowd of black brothers actually approaches Jon with concerns, in Jon XI after his negotiations with Tormund, Marsh is nowhere to be seen. It's Ulmer of the Kingswood, a survivor of the Fist of the First Men, who comes forward to speak for the rest, and he asks whether it'll be peace or blood and iron with the wildlings. Keep in mind that the NW will bleed, too, if Tormund chooses to fight.

    Granted, Othell Yarwyck and Septon Cellador support Marsh. Yarwyck's particularly susceptible to peer pressure, however. In ASOS, Alliser Thorne, with Marsh at his side, presses Yarwyck into withdrawing his candidacy as Lord Commander in favor of Janos Slynt but, as soon as Yarwyck senses that Jon might prove the winner, he swings his vote to Jon. I bet Yarwyck loses his nerve to oppose Jon after facing a Shieldhall packed with wildlings clamoring to fight for Jon. As for Septon Cellador, everyone knows he's a useless lush. Possibly his most memorable moment in the series prior to ADWD is Donal Noye threatening to toss him off the Wall during Mance Rayder's initial attacks.

    Bottom line, that Marsh and his accomplices act against Jon by no means shows that the entire Night's Watch is opposed to Jon's policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead
    As readers, we can easily sympathize with Jon Snow's decisions as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Through his viewpoint, we meet wildlings and find some of them to be likable characters. We see that the Others are a serious threat.
    Except that, once Tormund's people are south of the Wall, the black brothers have opportunity to observe the wildlings at close range, too--their warriors, yes, but also their women and children, old and wounded and infirm. And, despite Marsh's dire predictions that the wildlings will betray the NW, nothing of the sort happens. Instead, the free folk obey Jon's orders, manning castles along the Wall in preparation for warring with the Others.

    Regarding this, by ADWD, there's no excuse for ignorance as to the threat of the Others on the part of any man of the NW who isn't an idiot, like Owen the Oaf, or willfully blind, like Marsh. Undead Othor and Jafer Flowers infiltrate Castle Black in AGOT to assassinate Lord Commander Mormont, killing the acting First Ranger and five others in the process. Near three hundred men are lost on Mormont's ranging, a third of the NW's strength, and most to the wights at the Fist of the First Men. It's not as if there are no survivors either, which might've left the NW puzzled as to who the enemy is.

    Furthermore, exactly what else besides the conquest of Westeros would the Others be interested in? It's been thousands of years since the last Long Night, but all the North's oral and written histories agree that the Others are hostile and the NW's purpose is to fight them. Pretty much everything about the Others that's known to us readers is known to the NW, and the exceptions would tend to suggest the Wall is more vulnerable, not less so. From Coldhands being unable to cross the Wall and Bran's chapters in general, people have speculated that the Wall's magically warded against the Others and wights. Jon has no access to such intelligence, though, as Sam's sworn to secrecy about Bran and his companions. The Wall's just another static fortification to him, impressive but dependent on the mettle of its defenders, who currently aren't much to speak of in number or quality. Plus, with all the rumors of Joramun's horn, Jon can't rule out the Others having magical means to bypass the Wall. A potential danger that should be obvious, anyways, seeing as the Others are necromancers!

    Jon even gives a speech about the NW and wildlings making common cause against the Others in Mole's Town. A dozen spearmen and a dozen archers are there to hear it, along with Bowen Marsh.

    "The Wall protects the realm... and you now. You know the foe we face. You know what's coming down on us. Some of you have faced them before. Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I've seen them, too, fought them, sent one to hell. They kill, then they send your dead against you. The giants were not able to stand against them nor you Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots, the free folk... and as the days grow shorter and the nights colder, they are growing stronger. You left your homes and came south in your hundreds and your thousands... Why, but to escape them? To be safe. Well, it's the Wall that keeps you safe. It's us that keeps you safe, the black crows you despise. [...] A wall is only as good as the men defending it. [...] No one is asking you to take our vows, and I do not care what gods you worship. My own gods are the old gods, the gods of the North, but you can keep the red god or the Seven or any other god who hears your prayers. It's spears we need. Bows. Eyes along the Wall." (Jon V, ADWD)

    I'm not sure how much clearer Jon can get. Another Long Night is imminent. Marsh is a coward in denial.

  8. #803
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Bowen Marsh is extremely conservative in his interpretation of the role of the Night's Watch. Not in terms of a legalistic interpretation of the vows, but just adherence to the way he has seen things done at the Wall. As he sees it, the wildlings are the enemy, period. I'm not sure how old Marsh is at the time of this series, but I believe that the previous Lord Commander Mormont dismissively referred to him as a tired old man. So Marsh has likely been there for decades, knowing only the wildlings as the enemy, and also the King of the Seven Kingdoms is whoever sits on the throne in King's Landing.

    So from Marsh's viewpoint (which is necessarily much more limited than that of us readers), Stannis is a rebel, and a failed rebel at that, unable to hold even his own castle on Dragonstone. Offering Stannis hospitality at the Wall is an unthinkable violation of the neutrality and a clear affront to the apparently legitimate king in the south. Letting all the wildlings through the Wall is a grotesque failure of the purpose of the Wall, as Marsh sees it. He's a clerk, more or less, he doesn't fully believe in the threat of the Others because it is completely outside of his experience. So here is this terribly young bastard serving as Lord Commander, and he has broken neutrality, offended the king, and allowed the enemy to pass through the Wall. And that enemy horde will eat all the Watch's food, right at the onset of a winter that is expected to last for years. And then to top it all off, as a final affront, this very young Lord Commander is abandoning his duties at the Wall to lead a horde of enemy warriors to overthrow the lord selected by the king to rule at Winterfell.

    You don't have to agree with Marsh. I don't agree with Marsh. But to deny his viewpoint is to completely fail to recognize him as a distinct character in the series, and to damn him for his lack of insight, the insight that we have gained from a semi-omniscient perspective as readers of all these different POV narratives from across the realm. Marsh doesn't know what we know, he only knows what he knows. And he is a bigot who has spent a long time fearing and hating wildlings and performing his duty to the realm as he understood it.

    I agree with you that the assassination of Jon Snow was a bad idea. It will most likely cause a great deal of unnecessary bloodshed and chaos at the Wall, and I will be surprised if Marsh survives his first appearance in the next book. But a great deal of what makes this series compelling is the clash between various characters with different beliefs and values. This is is not a simple story about Good versus Evil, this is a complex saga involving many people doing bad things for what they believe are the right reasons. Marsh is a nervous old man, a bureaucrat, a spoon-counter, and now a traitor. But in his own mind, Bowen Marsh is a man who knows right from wrong, and sees that the stakes are so high that he must commit murder for the good of the kingdom.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
    Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

  9. #804
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    bureacracy is just as good a killer as plagues and wars
    Support your local roller derby league

  10. #805
    New Member Yeade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead
    I agree with you that the assassination of Jon Snow was a bad idea. It will most likely cause a great deal of unnecessary bloodshed and chaos at the Wall, and I will be surprised if Marsh survives his first appearance in the next book. But a great deal of what makes this series compelling is the clash between various characters with different beliefs and values.
    Shellhead, to a certain degree, I think there's been a misunderstanding between us. I'm not arguing whether Marsh is justified in his beliefs and actions from his point of view. That seems an ultimately useless exercise to me because, if Marsh didn't feel that killing Jon in the manner he does is necessary, he wouldn't have done it to begin with. In addition, my working assumption is that GRRM's a skilled enough writer that the majority of his characters, even bit players like Marsh, act realistically with sympathetic motivations.

    As readers, however, with our privileged near-omniscient perspective, it's our prerogative to judge whether the decisions of the characters are in fact right or wrong. I've observed a tendency to treat Marsh's opposition to Jon at face value as proof that Jon's mistaken or an oathbreaker without due consideration of Marsh's own biases, and it's this that my original argument is intended to address.

    Where you and I still disagree is that I don't believe Marsh cares all that much for his duty to the realm. He commits murder as a last ditch attempt to save his own skin, IMO, out of fear that the only way to appease the Boltons is to have Jon's head on a spike when Ramsay arrives at Castle Black. What of the wildlings, you ask? Honestly, I think Marsh's lost what little strategic sense he had in his anger at Jon's answer to the Pink Letter. Else his continued refusal to learn of wildling culture keeps him from recognizing that the free folk have all but proclaimed Jon their new king, leading to the ridiculous assessment that he'd be able to talk the wildlings down from ripping him to bloody pieces. Such a level of self-delusion wouldn't be beyond the man who argues to Jon that the Night's Watch should make common cause with the free folk against the Others while the wildlings remain beyond the Wall, bearing the brunt of wight attacks.

    I don't think Marsh wants to fight wildlings anymore, not even in defense of the realm. He's perfectly fine being in denial about how high chances are that Tormund, the Weeper, and their ilk would mount another series of attacks on the Wall unless a truce is negotiated and, even if the worst comes to pass, I suppose it's not really Marsh's problem, as the wildlings are far more likely to hit the Shadow Tower or Eastwatch than Castle Black again, where Marsh would expect to stay safe as castellan while Jon rides forth to command the troops. Marsh doesn't hesitate to forsake his brothers as lost either, so long as nobody else is required to risk his life in any military venture besides patrolling atop the Wall. Cotter Pyke and his men are stranded at Hardhome, too, after all. Jon has an obligation as their commander to send aid as requested or at least try to, but Marsh is dead set against the idea.

    Finally, in regards to the Others, as I noted in my previous post, pretty much all the crucial intelligence that indicates the Others are a potentially apocalyptic threat is as available to the men of the Night's Watch as it is to us readers. I suspect Marsh is just being willfully blind on this point. Similar to how he has no suggestions as to what could convince Stannis, whose army is thrice the strength of the NW, to leave the Wall rather than seize by force everything he demands should Jon refuse him hospitality. This last is not a breach of neutrality, anyways. The Wall's hosted Alysanne and her dragon, Silverwing, who were accompanied north by Jaehaerys, five other dragons, and half the court, Tyrion Lannister more recently, and who knows how many Stark kings in the past, starting with Brandon the Builder. Marsh objects to Stannis's presence simply because he would have the NW curry favor with the Iron Throne despite how little the Lannisters and Boltons care for what happens to the Wall.


    edit: minor rewording
    Last edited by Yeade; 08-02-2013 at 05:34 PM.

  11. #806
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    This thread is the only place where I post about A Dance With Dragons, so I don't know what the broader fan reaction is like. Just based on talking with a few friends who are also reading this series, it seemed to me that everybody thought that Jon Snow was taking bold but completely logical actions since becoming Lord Commander of the Wall. Personally, I have found his entire story arc too pat up until the moment he gets stabbed by Marsh. The stabbing was a refreshing twist, because it derails what was starting to look like a very predictable story arc and throws the North into chaos. Also, it seemed like the remaining POV characters were getting too safe, at least between now and the ending of the series, but the apparent death of Jon Snow makes everything seem more dangerous now. I never approved of Marsh stabbing Jon, just saw it as a welcome jolt to keep things interesting.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
    Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

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