George R.R. Martin's A DANCE WITH DRAGONS - Spoiled Discussion

[Blueferret]

It seems a bit on the nose, but I think Melisandre is going to bring Jon back from the grave and somehow get his hands on Lightbringer, which will burst into flames or at least give off intense heat. She'll realize that he's the Azor Ahai, not Stannis. The Black will turn their back on him, but the wildlings and Stannis' men will rally to him.

I wonder if by being dead, that releases Jon from his vows.

[Alex]

most everyone dies and the Seven Kingdoms become seven independent kingdoms

Nah, they split into states and have a representative democracy.

[FanboyStranger]

I wonder if if by being dead, that releases Jon from his vows.

It's a bit of a cop-out, but yeah, I suppose it would. I just don't see the Black following Jon after the cock-up with Mance Rayder and his declaring war on the Boltons. The Wildlings, yeah, they'll be in, but not the Black, which I suspect will not last much longer as an institution. Between Jon and Samwell, you're seeing the two most important Crows in the books going in very different directions, and if anything in the books has a timeclock attached to it besides Tommen's rule, it's the Wall. I half expect Bran to bring it down himself.

[Titan76]

The two primary protagonists in the series appear to be Jon and Dany. This also seems to be supported by the title of the series. Like a manga fangirl, I was hoping for a Jon and Dany union with a nice happy ending. That is together they defeat the Others, get married, and bring peace and prosperity back to Westeros as King and Queen.

Martin has hinted that there will be no happy ending so that conclusion probably ain't happenin'.

Anyone else have speculation as to how the story will wrap up?

I say, that Jon and Danny will met and have a baby. Danny will die in childbirth, Jon will die defeating the Others, Aegon gets eaten by one of Danny's dragons, Tyrion will rule as Hand, until Jon and Danny's baby comes of age.

Something I hope happens, Arya kills Ramsay Snow and it goes like this;

Arya: What is a girl, who kills a bastard with a needle in Winterfell?

Ramsay: What?...I don't know.

Arya: Arya of House Stark.

Also, to be an Others "zombie," do you have to be killed by The Others?

It doesn't seem so. The Wildlings always made sure to burn not just their dead, but any dead bodies they came across. This would suggest that the Others can bring back any dead person or animal.

[Jared]

I wonder if by being dead, that releases Jon from his vows.

I suspect Melisandre orchestrated it for precisely that reason, but I don't buy for one second that Jon is really truly dead. I don't even think he'll be undead in the way like Lord Beric or Cat. I'm thinking he's just got minor wounds, coupled with her illusion magic.

I have major doubts about whether Aegon is the real deal. The only proof he's the prince is his hair color. He's more likely some kid of the right age they picked up from the Blackfyre line. For that matter, wasn't someone from another house, I think Cersei met him, who had enough Targ blood to get the trademark look?

Maester Aemon seemed fairly certain that Stannis' "Lightbringer" is a sham, from the description given to him. Maybe that was just because the wrong guy held it, but I don't think so. I would imagine the real sword would at least be Valyrian steel, which is always remarked upon. If not that, it'd be something else entirely. Starfall supposedly has a magic meteor sword that glows.

I fully expect King's Landing to burn and The Wall to come down before the series ends.

I seem to recall several references to "remnants of Robb Stark's army" somewhere up north. I think they'll come up into play, and we will see Winterfell/The North, if not returned to glory, at least avenged and put on the path to recovery.

[Vibranium]

I think Aegon is the real deal, I just think he's got the crazy part of the bloodline and probably will not make it to the end

[Winslow]

I think Aegon is Illyrio's kid.

[the_coldest_sun]

I think Aegon is Illyrio's kid.

I believe this too, and that his wife was a Blackfyre. There's a story in AFFC about an inn's sign shaped as a black dragon, being tossed into the sea and the head returning to shore red from rust. I believe this is a small clue that Aegon/Little Griff is actually a Blackfyre (black dragon) returning to Westeros posing as a true Targaryen (red dragon). However at this point, I don't believe the boy knows the truth and that Jon Connington may not be aware of the truth either.

But even if that's the case, I personally feel he has a strong claim to the Iron Throne. Afterall, he is still the blood of the dragon. A Targaryen bastard is just as much a dragon as a pureblood. His ancestors were thrown out of Westeros and he still has a wrong to right in the name of House Blackfyre, whether he knows it or not. I kind of want to root for the guy!

[Gary_B]

With 2 books to go, there is a lot of ground to cover. The Westeros throne is nowhere close to being resolved and then you add the Others into the mix it's a mess.

Things could get very ugly by the time this all wraps up. Most of Westeros has no idea how big a threat the Others are. Many dont even believe they exist.

I think Aegon is Illyrio's kid.

That's a very interesting thought. At this point I believe that he is the second child and only son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell.

[Omega Alpha]

I'm firmly in the Aegon is a Blackfyre camp, because that's the only way Varys actions and motivations make sense: he is Aegon's uncle, and his sister was Sierra, Illyrio's late wife, and both descend from Maelys the Monstrous- I'm not sure if they're his children or, most likely, descend from them through a female line (maybe a daughter or a sister).

Varys working to return his family to their (in his mind) rightful place explains everything: why did he leave a life of wealth to a spartan existence in KL, why did he manipulated Aerys to become even madder, why did he and Illyrio left both Viserys and Dany with the Dothraki when their survival was unlikely without much thought (and, indeed, tried to kill Dany), and why Barristan wasn't send to Aegon instead (last time he met a Blackfyre things didn't end well for them).

[Titan76]

I'm firmly in the Aegon is a Blackfyre camp, because that's the only way Varys actions and motivations make sense: he is Aegon's uncle, and his sister was Sierra, Illyrio's late wife, and both descend from Maelys the Monstrous- I'm not sure if they're his children or, most likely, descend from them through a female line (maybe a daughter or a sister).

Varys working to return his family to their (in his mind) rightful place explains everything: why did he leave a life of wealth to a spartan existence in KL, why did he manipulated Aerys to become even madder, why did he and Illyrio left both Viserys and Dany with the Dothraki when their survival was unlikely without much thought (and, indeed, tried to kill Dany), and why Barristan wasn't send to Aegon instead (last time he met a Blackfyre things didn't end well for them).

I don't think Viserys going with Dany and the Dothraki was part of the plan. Illyrio tried to kep Viserys with him at his estate, but Viserys refuse on the account he wanted to make sure Khal Drogo would honor the deal they made. I often wonder what Varys and Illyrio's plans with Viserys were.

[Omega Alpha]

I don't think Viserys going with Dany and the Dothraki was part of the plan. Illyrio tried to kep Viserys with him at his estate, but Viserys refuse on the account he wanted to make sure Khal Drogo would honor the deal they made. I often wonder what Varys and Illyrio's plans with Viserys were.

It wasn't part of the plan, but Illyrio clearly didn't care whether he went or not.

Varys + Illyrio plan was, I think:

1) Give the Dothraki enough motivation to invade Westeros;

2) When he knew they were set to invade, reveal the incest, kickstarting a war. Possibly have Robert killed as well;

3) Have the Dothraki invade, fighting either for Viserys, Dany, a Drogo/Dany child, or simply wanting revenge, cause even more chaos;

4) When most forces were severely damaged due to a long war, reveal "Aegon" and have him invade as the rightful heir and savior of the realm alongside the Dornish, the Golden Company and whatever allies he can get.

I'm not sure when, or if they ever planned to reveal Aegon as a Blackfyre.

And as for the most obvious question: why Varys tried to avoid the beginning of the war? Because Drogo was unwilling to invade until the attempt on Dany, so he was trying to delay the war, but LF made it impossible.

[Alex]

It's a bit of a cop-out, but yeah, I suppose it would. I just don't see the Black following Jon after the cock-up with Mance Rayder and his declaring war on the Boltons. The Wildlings, yeah, they'll be in, but not the Black, which I suspect will not last much longer as an institution. Between Jon and Samwell, you're seeing the two most important Crows in the books going in very different directions, and if anything in the books has a timeclock attached to it besides Tommen's rule, it's the Wall. I half expect Bran to bring it down himself.

Oh no, he won't have the support of the roughly 200 old men and criminals on the wall!

[Winslow]

I thought when Tyrion was walking through Illyrio's palace in ADWD, he stumbled across the statue of a young white haired man. It was implied that it was Illyrio in his youth. So I wonder if Illyrio will be revealed as decended from Valyrian nobility or maybe even a Targaryen as well.

I can't think of what motivation Illyrio and Varys could possibly have to perform all the intrigue and murder. It reeks of ambition rather than benevolence.

[Roquefort Raider]

I'm firmly in the Aegon is a Blackfyre camp, because that's the only way Varys actions and motivations make sense: he is Aegon's uncle, and his sister was Sierra, Illyrio's late wife, and both descend from Maelys the Monstrous- I'm not sure if they're his children or, most likely, descend from them through a female line (maybe a daughter or a sister).

That's a pretty cool theory, and since Varys is a consummate actor it does make of Aegon a "mummer's dragon". Not in the sense that he's a fake dragon as I first thought, but that he's the genuine dragon of a mummer.