George R.R. Martin's A DANCE WITH DRAGONS - Spoiled Discussion

[Sheldon]

I reread Dany's last chapter. It stuck out to me that it is left a bit ambiguous whether or not she has the plague, but that she is fertile again. You know that old Mirri Maz Duur prophecy that Dany keeps thinking about - "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Perhaps the blood is her womb quickening again. Dany did have trouble remembering when her last period was. So Quentyn could be the sun that rose in the west and set in the east. The seas going dry. Sure I can't think of how the seas have gone dry (besides the fact that the Dothraki sea is grass...), but can't think about how the mountains have blown in the wind. Anyways something more to think about over the next few years while GRRM writes the next book.

[thespianphryne]

That would be my guess, but I suppose it's hard to say since we know so little of what has happened with Connington up until this book as well as the complete details of greyscale. It may be that it's a very slow wasting disease, especially in a healthy person (which was why he was figuring he had a few years to seat Aegon). I'd have to go back and re-read, but wasn't Connington dressing up weirdly even when Tyrion first met him? I'm not sure.

No, he got it from rescuing Tyrion. Because, later when he's examining the progress, he ruefully thinks to himself how he should have just let Tyrion drown and not reached in to pull him up.

[Michael P]

Q: What do you call three dead Freys baked into pies?

A: A good start.

[Michael P]

Do we need to know every time we see Tyrion (and we see him a lot) that he killed his father with a crossbow?

That's not Martin constantly reminding us of the fact, that's Martin showing us that Tyrion is obsessing over it.

[Inkthinker]

Q: What do you call three dead Freys baked into pies?

A: A good start.

Niiice. :D

Was that actually the intent of the bit where Walder says something to the effect of "enjoy these pies, I know I will"? I missed any suggestion that they cannibalized the Freys, but it'd be a pretty good twist (and perfect vengeance on the Freys and Boltons).

I was expecting poison, or some other betrayal during the wedding dinner (I was beginning to think Martin had a thing about weddings), but nothing really came of it (I thought).

I did realize pretty quick that the bard and his women were Mance and the spearwives. Too bad they weren't more competent. It seemed like one of the ongoing themes of this book was people who's carefully-laid plans go horribly awry... Stannis, Mance & Co., Jon, poor Quentyn...

I rather like that everyone in the book is fallible, it's a nice changeup from some fantasy authors (I'm lookin' at you, Eddings).

That's not Martin constantly reminding us of the fact, that's Martin showing us that Tyrion is obsessing over it.

Fair enough, though I wish he'd done it in such a way as to not annoy the reader... and I must confess, I did like it when Penny tried to hand him a crossbow out of the company steel and he rejected it for entirely logical, sound reasons. He's obsessed with his fratricide, not the tool with which he performed it.

[thespianphryne]

Yes the dead Freys are very much meant to be inferred. Especially with Wyman requesting Rat Cook to be played after he brings out the pies.

[Valmore]

Interesting - I never had thought of that until it was pointed out. But then it does make sense with the chapters that happened before. Of course, with Ramsay being what he is he probably wouldn't have cared either way. Roose, on the other hand...

At least it's much less likely that Ramsay Bolton will get to eat Jon Snow's heart - either he's dead (most doubtful) or he's going to be such a badass that he'll rip out Ramsay's heart and eat it instead.

And here I thought I couldn't like a family less than the Lannisters. Now I can't decide if I like the Freys or the Boltons the worst of all.

[Inkthinker]

Boltons. Freys are terrible, but not as bad as Boltons. And honestly, Lannisters aren't as bad as either... they're horrible people, but they had a couple (like Kevan) who tried to do good, and Jaime may yet be redeemable. Tyrion is a product of his experiences, and a protagonist at heart.

Really, it's mostly Cersei and Tywin who drove the worst of it. Lannister evil is the evil of old money and established assumption of superiority... Freys are outright turncloak backstabbing bastards, and Boltons are just plain sick evil.

Heehee...

Lannisters = Lawful Evil
Freys = Neutral Evil
Boltons = Chaotic Evil.

:D

[Brock]

Wyman Manderly deserves his very own Hostess fruit pies advert.

Prediction for the prologue to The Winds of Winter: Ser Balon Swann tracks down Gerold Dayne leading to their mutual destruction. It seems like the type of minor plot thread that would play out well as an opening scene. Having the opening pov character die on a chivalrous crusade (embarked upon under somewhat false pretenses) would serve as thematic commentary on the decline of the Lannister/Baratheon regime.

[Jack]

I decided to savour the book, so I've only just finished it today. I mean, who knows how many years we'll have to wait to find out what happens next?

Let's see, thoughts, thoughts...

I don't believe for a second that Aegon is really Rhaegar's son. The Targaryens aren't the only people in the world with violet eyes and silver hair, and it just seems too damn convenient to be true. It's always been very clear that Varys serves the realm, not the crown. He doesn't care if a dragon or stag holds the throne as long as they can keep the kingdoms unified. His speech at the end shows how he has deliberately moulded Aegon into the perfect king.

I think he might well end up sitting on the Iron Throne by the end of the series, but I don't think he's a true Targaryen.

Though I am greatly saddened by his last chapter, I don't see Jon staying dead. Whether he's really the Prince Who Was Promised or not, he's the one Melisandre has been seeing in her visions, and she's not going to let him die. He hasn't even tested Longclaw on some Others yet! He's basically the only one holding everything at the Wall together, even if no one loves him for it. The Watch can't go back to fighting wildlings when the Others are coming.

Besides, he needs to be the one who kills the Bastard of Bolton. They're too closely paralleled for them to never have a confrontation.

Was Marwyn in it and I missed him? Everyone else who set out to join Dany in Feast at least got an appearance in the book. I suppose he's too wise to have arrived to help Dany yet. It was important that she not actually know anything about dragons. Speaking of which, I guess that's also why Tyrion never quite got to reach her too. I did like how Tyrion was essentially at his least powerful but still managed to talk his way through all his troubles. I imagine he's going to become Dany's Hand in the future, since she needs a politician.

I felt a little cheated that there was so little Bran in it. Arya too, to a lesser extent. She only got two chapters, but at least she was in Feast as well. I know it was implied a few times that he was watching people through the trees, but that's not quite the same. Oh well, at least he learnt to fly. Part of me wonders if he's really the Prince Who Was Promised, and will skinchange into a dragon and combine Stark and Targaryen magics.

Even though we correctly predicted that Brienne would save Podrick and herself by promising to kill Jaime it doesn't exactly leave a nice taste in the mouth.

[Sheldon]

Was Marwyn in it and I missed him? Everyone else who set out to join Dany in Feast at least got an appearance in the book. I suppose he's too wise to have arrived to help Dany yet. It was important that she not actually know anything about dragons. Speaking of which, I guess that's also why Tyrion never quite got to reach her too. I did like how Tyrion was essentially at his least powerful but still managed to talk his way through all his troubles. I imagine he's going to become Dany's Hand in the future, since she needs a politician.

No Marwyn, when I read Victarion's chapter and he picks up the red priest, I thought it was going to be Marwyn, but alas no such luck, but then again with Moqorro gives Vicatrion a magic burnt hand, so that is pretty cool too...

[Jack]

No Marwyn, when I read Victarion's chapter and he picks up the red priest, I thought it was going to be Marwyn, but alas no such luck, but then again with Moqorro gives Vicatrion a magic burnt hand, so that is pretty cool too...

Yup. When the crew went "We found a wizard" I immediately thought "Aha, Marwyn!" But twas not to be. Again it makes sense, because Marwyn most likely wouldn't help Victarion steal a dragon.

All the priests of R'hllor are mighty suspicious.

[Valmore]

Yup. When the crew went "We found a wizard" I immediately thought "Aha, Marwyn!" But twas not to be. Again it makes sense, because Marwyn most likely wouldn't help Victarion steal a dragon.

All the priests of R'hllor are mighty suspicious.

Highly - and it's pretty damned convenient that everyone has forgotten the great red comet that was streaking across the sky.

And honestly, everything seems too damned convenient near the end. And with the reputation for treachery and lies the Boltons have, who's to say that the supposed battle had actually taken place at all? Sure, they may have caught Mance and his spearwives, but most of the stuff in his letter is common knowledge to everyone - Stannis has his red priestess and a "magic" sword, etc. Without an actual witness chapter to the event, it shouldn't even be taken as true that Stannis and his host are dead. The Braavosi banker made it to to Stannis, and if there were a battle, Ramsay and his men should have easily found "Reek" and "Arya" - they were with Stannis' host, and he was not likely to release them - where would he send them? He couldn't spare any of his own host, and with the snows around them he'd dare not send them anywhere. Plus Theon is still believed to have killed the Stark boys and sacked Winterfell - he'd do justice for that as well. Plus with white Harbor and the Freys at each others throats... I'm not inclined yet to believe that the battle has taken place. Not until it's confirmed in the next book.

[Sheldon]

btw here is a link from ew.com where for the first time George discusses some of the end of the book events. He obviously plays coy with things, but still an interesting read.

[Jack]

I believe Stannis is already dead about as much as I believed that Manderley had really killed Davos back in Feast. Which is to say, not at all.