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    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
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    Default George R.R. Martin's A DANCE WITH DRAGONS - Spoiled Discussion

    In order to keep the main "Winter is Coming" thread from becoming a morass of spoiler tags as people read A Dance With Dragons at different paces, I thought this might be a good idea.

    To be clear, there will be spoilers.

    To get us started . . . I liked the Griff chapters, but I'm undecided on the idea of an additional Targaryen running around. Bringing him in adds an intriguing new faction, especially with the connection to Varys and Illyrio, but it makes Dany a little less special.

    Speaking of Aegon VI, was that foreshadowed at all? The image of the Mountain bashing baby Aegon's brains out was a powerful one in earlier books and one that Martin went back to several times, but I don't recall there being any noticeable ambiguity to it.
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    Julie Barnes thespianphryne's Avatar
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    But knowing Varys, is young Griff really baby Aegon? Remember Dany's vision in Qarth? The mummer's dragon.
    Last edited by thespianphryne; 07-14-2011 at 06:05 PM.

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    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
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    That's certainly an option. Connington would have to be in on it, though, and I'm not getting that sense from his POVs.

    As far as the mummer's dragon bit goes, I don't know if it's necessarily relevant. The other two items in that passage (Lightbringer and a stone dragon) were related to Stannis's storyline in the same book.
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    Senior Member Sheldon's Avatar
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    I think Aegon's purpose is a plot device to keep southern westeros busy until Dany gets her crap together (both literally and figuratively) and gets the hell out of Mereen. He will be killed just before she arrives. All I know is that 1/2 through the book I was ready for them to get out of there, but Martin seems to have some grand purpose for keeping her there so long. It was pretty frustrating when I read the last Barristan chapter and realized it the book was going to end, and we were probably going to spend a good chunk of the next book in that hellhole.

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    Magnificent Bastard worstblogever's Avatar
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    I'm around 350-400 pages in now.

    The Aegon think threw me for a loop, and immediately got my wheels spinning, about the implications. The Targaryen line might not end with Dany, after all, if he is what he says he is.

    Varys continues to be fascinating in all he's involved in, even if thus far in book 5, he just has the one opening scene during Tyrion's escape.

    Melisandre has just started trying to get her hooks in Jon Snow, where I'm at. The priests of the red god bother me, don't trust them. It's not when they order sacrifices, even, it's the scene where Davos took Melisandre to assassinate his brother, Renly, and she birthed a shadow that did the job. I don't want to be suspicious of folks just for wielding magic... but the Red Priestess is pretty sinister about what she's doing with it. She's hardly pulling rabbits out of hats, here.

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    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    Varys continues to be fascinating in all he's involved in, even if thus far in book 5, he just has the one opening scene during Tyrion's escape.
    He only gets one more scene later on, but it's a doozy.
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    Were You There? Michael P's Avatar
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    Q: What do you call three dead Freys baked into pies?

    A: A good start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael P View Post
    Q: What do you call three dead Freys baked into pies?

    A: A good start.
    Niiice. :D

    Was that actually the intent of the bit where Walder says something to the effect of "enjoy these pies, I know I will"? I missed any suggestion that they cannibalized the Freys, but it'd be a pretty good twist (and perfect vengeance on the Freys and Boltons).

    I was expecting poison, or some other betrayal during the wedding dinner (I was beginning to think Martin had a thing about weddings), but nothing really came of it (I thought).

    I did realize pretty quick that the bard and his women were Mance and the spearwives. Too bad they weren't more competent. It seemed like one of the ongoing themes of this book was people who's carefully-laid plans go horribly awry... Stannis, Mance & Co., Jon, poor Quentyn...

    I rather like that everyone in the book is fallible, it's a nice changeup from some fantasy authors (I'm lookin' at you, Eddings).

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael P View Post
    That's not Martin constantly reminding us of the fact, that's Martin showing us that Tyrion is obsessing over it.
    Fair enough, though I wish he'd done it in such a way as to not annoy the reader... and I must confess, I did like it when Penny tried to hand him a crossbow out of the company steel and he rejected it for entirely logical, sound reasons. He's obsessed with his fratricide, not the tool with which he performed it.
    Last edited by Inkthinker; 07-19-2011 at 09:16 PM.
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    Julie Barnes thespianphryne's Avatar
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    Yes the dead Freys are very much meant to be inferred. Especially with Wyman requesting Rat Cook to be played after he brings out the pies.

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    NUTS! Valmore's Avatar
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    Interesting - I never had thought of that until it was pointed out. But then it does make sense with the chapters that happened before. Of course, with Ramsay being what he is he probably wouldn't have cared either way. Roose, on the other hand...

    At least it's much less likely that Ramsay Bolton will get to eat Jon Snow's heart - either he's dead (most doubtful) or he's going to be such a badass that he'll rip out Ramsay's heart and eat it instead.

    And here I thought I couldn't like a family less than the Lannisters. Now I can't decide if I like the Freys or the Boltons the worst of all.
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    Boltons. Freys are terrible, but not as bad as Boltons. And honestly, Lannisters aren't as bad as either... they're horrible people, but they had a couple (like Kevan) who tried to do good, and Jaime may yet be redeemable. Tyrion is a product of his experiences, and a protagonist at heart.

    Really, it's mostly Cersei and Tywin who drove the worst of it. Lannister evil is the evil of old money and established assumption of superiority... Freys are outright turncloak backstabbing bastards, and Boltons are just plain sick evil.

    Heehee...

    Lannisters = Lawful Evil
    Freys = Neutral Evil
    Boltons = Chaotic Evil.

    :D
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    Senior Member the_coldest_sun's Avatar
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    Speaking of speculation... (ADWD spoilers follow)

    spoilers:
    How about the idea of Bran being able to alter history via his greenseer abilities. He was told that he cannot speak to people through the weirwoods, that his attempts are only whispers on the wind and rustling of the leaves. Yet later, Theon is reminded of Bran on multiple visits to the Godswood in Winterfell.

    At the moment, Bran is pretty powerful and he's only really just begun his training. Does anyone suppose its possible he will be able to communicate directly or at least influence ideas or actions through his weirwood whispers? And if so, what does that mean for those he visits in the past?

    This opens up all sorts of possibilities but time travel/paradox is a tricky beast. The series is complex enough already and adding this to the mix could possibly ruin things. Plus, reading 5,000 pages of story only to find out Bran altered the course of history making everything we read no longer matter would be a kick in the groin from GRRM.

    On the other hand, how cool would it be to see Bran find out about Rhaegar & Lyanna eloping, notify his father about their love for each other, and prevent Robert's rebellion which would allow Rhaegar to inherit the Iron Throne (after the Mad King is dealt with--Rhaegar did promise to change things when he returned from the Trident), followed by his son Aegon (who then befalls a fate similar to Little Walder), leaving the Iron Throne and the rule of the Seven Kingdoms to Jon Targaryen.
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by the_coldest_sun; 08-17-2011 at 08:30 PM.

  13. #13
    Cyclops Is Right Kiryu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_coldest_sun View Post
    Speaking of speculation... (ADWD spoilers follow)

    spoilers:
    How about the idea of Bran being able to alter history via his greenseer abilities. He was told that he cannot speak to people through the weirwoods, that his attempts are only whispers on the wind and rustling of the leaves. Yet later, Theon is reminded of Bran on multiple visits to the Godswood in Winterfell.

    At the moment, Bran is pretty powerful and he's only really just begun his training. Does anyone suppose its possible he will be able to communicate directly or at least influence ideas or actions through his weirwood whispers? And if so, what does that mean for those he visits in the past?

    This opens up all sorts of possibilities but time travel/paradox is a tricky beast. The series is complex enough already and adding this to the mix could possibly ruin things. Plus, reading 5,000 pages of story only to find out Bran altered the course of history making everything we read no longer matter would be a kick in the groin from GRRM.

    On the other hand, how cool would it be to see Bran find out about Rhaegar & Lyanna eloping, notify his father about their love for each other, and prevent Robert's rebellion which would allow Rhaegar to inherit the Iron Throne (after the Mad King is dealt with--Rhaegar did promise to change things when he returned from the Trident), followed by his son Aegon (who then befalls a fate similar to Little Walder), leaving the Iron Throne and the rule of the Seven Kingdoms to Jon Targaryen.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    I really really hope Bran doesn't fix things via time travel.
    end of spoilers

    But I don't think that will be the case. The problems in the world run deeper then simply Robert's Rebellion and the current insanity. Westeros is rife with corruption and scandal around every corner and now it's all starting to bleed out. I feel like one of the themes in the books are that the caste system and looking/respecting people based on their birth or name or family or what side of the wall they are on is wrong and has to change.

    All the fighting in Westeros is ultimately pointless. The Game of Thrones isn't being fought properly imo. Death is the enemy, and the War of the Five kings has only bolstered it's ranks.
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    Not my job to care Hiromi's Avatar
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    pretty sure it was specifically mentioned that you can't muck around with things that'v already happened, though it would seem from Theon's chapter that you can influence the present.

    by the by this is the spoiler thread, no need for tags as I understand it

    All the fighting in Westeros is ultimately pointless. The Game of Thrones isn't being fought properly imo. Death is the enemy, and the War of the Five kings has only bolstered it's ranks.
    Dont know if you're talking in general terms or about the Other specifically but so far no Wights have appeared south of the wall that weren't brought there from north of it, so I doubt the dead in the South play any role in it, especially with Arya's Wolf's super pack tacking care of the corpses.
    Last edited by Hiromi; 08-18-2011 at 09:14 AM.
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    Cyclops Is Right Kiryu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiromi View Post
    Dont know if you're talking in general terms or about the Other specifically but so far no Wights have appeared south of the wall that weren't brought there from north of it, so I doubt the dead in the South play any role in it, especially with Arya's Wolf's super pack tacking care of the corpses.
    I'm saying I believe the reason the dead only rise North of the Wall is because of the magical properties of the wall. Once the wall falls, which I am sure it will, I think the magic will spread.

    I think the true conflict of the series is the others vs everyone. The other wars are follies and will ultimately prove to have been nothing more then fuel for the real enemy.
    Last edited by Kiryu; 08-18-2011 at 12:30 PM.
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