Polaris Appreciation III

[salarta]

The specifics of their on-panel histories isn't as important as the conception of the character and the role they are meant to fill in the cast. Wanda and Lorna were both created to be passive damsels in distress like all Marvel females from the 1960s, and no matter how they are developed they still don't really stack up well to more modern depictions of women even in the male-dominated superhero genre.

If you want an example just look at the Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon, where their roles were essentially reversed but it still didn't really feel too far out of character for either of them. Given that Wanda is the older sister, it actually works better to cast her as the more assertive one and Lorna as the naive ingenue. Of course even Wanda was just there to be a pretty damsel too, I believe in the Mojo episode he even called her out on it.

Of course anyone could be given more depth and personality, but that would require them to be written out of character and generally requires more effort than just creating someone new to fill the "strong female character" niche. Not to mention that this particular stereotype can be even more damaging. Can you really imagine Lorna using kung-fu, spewing obscenities, and doing a bunch of other bullshit just so the writer can show that she is tough? Her vulnerability is really the most important aspect of her character, take that away and you're just left with Abigail Brand...ugh.

I think there are some... assumptions taken there that are not necessarily true. Not that you're not entitled to your opinion, but opinion can vary, and there are a lot of rather extreme suggestions there when something less extreme would be okay.

While I've been a strong defender of treating characters and concepts and such appropriately compared to their source material, at the same time I'm also a strong proponent of development and things changing over time. Just as in real life, people can and do change. Even after reaching adulthood, nobody will remain entirely the same person after ten to twenty years have passed. People can and do come into new ways of being that would surprise people they knew a decade prior. The key when using it in fiction is that you need to actually see it happen with your own eyes.

More importantly, times change. Social expectations change. Clothing that would have been seen as disgustingly inappropriate back when these comics were made would, today, be seen as not only totally acceptable in fiction, but even fine to wear in everyday life.

The suggestion that characters "can't" develop into better, more appropriate modern ones just because they were originally conceived a certain way would mean that nearly every major male character in comic books would have to be a misogynist or a racist. Superman would be talking about slapping Japs if one of the villains was asian. Batman would straight up murder petty looters and shrug it off as just desserts. Wonder Woman comics would be endless streams of BDSM fantasies with women getting tied down every issue (for clarification I am NOT suggesting those early Wonder Woman comics were sexist, I'm just using it as an example; I know full well on Wonder Woman's creator's views on women). Sue Storm would still be called Invisible Girl and Reed Richards would essentially own her. Just because a character was conceived a certain way does not mean they're absolutely required to remain that way. They don't need to become the exact opposite of their origins, but there are certainly things that can be altered, a middle ground that can be reached.

To be tough and powerful, Lorna does not need to be performing black belt moves and swearing like a sailor as you suggest. She just needs to be allowed to speak her own mind, stand her ground, be shown knowing how to actually use her powers and use them to be a force of reckoning all her own. That's not "writing them out of character," that's giving enough of a damn about good writing to actually develop the characters rather than reducing them to decades old bland stereotypes.

Oh, and it's possible to have a character written better, showing themselves as tough and more powerful, while maintaining some vulnerability. Most characters have that. Without it, you can't relate to the character and they become bland to read. Lorna does not require being dumbed down as nothing but a cliche damsel in distress for the rest of her existence as a character in order to display vulnerability.

[jmc247]

The specifics of their on-panel histories isn't as important as the conception of the character and the role they are meant to fill in the cast. Wanda and Lorna were both created to be passive damsels in distress like all Marvel females from the 1960s, and no matter how they are developed they still don't really stack up well to more modern depictions of women even in the male-dominated superhero genre.

If you want an example just look at the Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon, where their roles were essentially reversed but it still didn't really feel too far out of character for either of them. Given that Wanda is the older sister, it actually works better to cast her as the more assertive one and Lorna as the naive ingenue. Of course even Wanda was just there to be a pretty damsel too, I believe in the Mojo episode he even called her out on it.

Of course anyone could be given more depth and personality, but that would require them to be written out of character and generally requires more effort than just creating someone new to fill the "strong female character" niche. Not to mention that this particular stereotype can be even more damaging. Can you really imagine Lorna using kung-fu, spewing obscenities, and doing a bunch of other bullshit just so the writer can show that she is tough? Her vulnerability is really the most important aspect of her character, take that away and you're just left with Abigail Brand...ugh.

Lorna went from being written like this in 1968.



To being written like this in the 80s.



She had one thing up on Wanda, Jean, and Sue Storm as she was created in the late 60s instead of the early 60s like the others. By the late 60s woman were just starting to be seen as having worth outside the home in society in general and not just being some form of damsel in distress in the comics... in the early 60s not so much.

But in the late 70s and 80s Lorna was handed the role something more akin to what Sue Storm had when she started only in a number of ways even more offensive at least to me. This was when the woman's rights movement was in its hayday and in what many fans consider the Golden Era of the X-Men and that has been a long term problem for the character as she is currently viewed as the weakest of the Silver Age woman of the group. Scarlet Witch, Jean, and Sue Storm became stronger characters during the 70s and 80s while Lorna became a weaker one.

Writers in the 90s and last decade tried to make Lorna stronger and had successes and failures, but overall she did start to become a stronger character. Its felt over the past several years to me like two steps forward, one step back, one step forward, two steps back. In writing her characterization writers should not forget about her history, but at the same time allow for character growth and development. It annoys me quite a bit when characters aren't allowed to grow and develop simply because they were written a certain way during X era.

[blanchett]

I did this a while back for another thread, basically a Polaris album or soundtrack. It's basically songs that I think could describe Lorna's character at different points. Some are meant to be tongue in cheek. Curious though what kind of music do you guys think she'll listen to or describe her?

[jmc247]

X-FACTOR #241 & 242
Peter David (w) • Leonard Kirk (A)
Cover by DAVID YARDIN
• The first of five issues that will CHANGE THE FACE OF X-FACTOR FOREVER.
• PART I: A rejected Strong Guy does the unthinkable!
• PART II: Two characters you never thought would come face-to-face are finally reunited.
32 PGS. (EACH)/Rated T+ …$2.99 (EACH)

[blanchett]

X-FACTOR #241 & 242
Peter David (w) • Leonard Kirk (A)
Cover by DAVID YARDIN
• The first of five issues that will CHANGE THE FACE OF X-FACTOR FOREVER.
• PART I: A rejected Strong Guy does the unthinkable!
• PART II: Two characters you never thought would come face-to-face are finally reunited.
32 PGS. (EACH)/Rated T+ …$2.99 (EACH)

Lorna and her mother or Lorna and Zaladane are possibilities. That or Siryn and Banshee.

[juan678]

Shateshat Nº NO POLARIS IN X-Factor 236

[Siryn]

Lorna and her mother or Lorna and Zaladane are possibilities. That or Siryn and Banshee.

I think it'll be Rahne and her wolf kids. She had a baby that she abandoned, and there's an AU child of hers wandering around the MU. I don't think it'd be Lorna's mom, Zaladane, or Banshee, since they're all dead at the moment. I think that'd be kinda a big deal if they got resurrected, and it just doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon (unfortunately).

[salarta]

For the past couple days, I've been thinking of something that I read in a post made by someone somewhere. I can't remember who said it, or even where, it might even have been here that I read it, but it's sticking with me for some reason in relation to Polaris. Basically, this guy claimed that lesser known characters taking major roles in things either have no effect or hurt sales and interest in bigger name ones, and used the film Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer as evidence.

So for the past few days, after seeing the film for the first time, I thought about it. I saw the first film when it came out in theaters, but not the second. And yet, Silver Surfer actually WAS a character that caught my interest when I was younger, solely because of his design, so his inclusion in that movie caught my interest. So why didn't I go see the sequel in theaters?

I realized it was because I didn't give a damn about the prospects of a new Fantastic Four film in the same mold as the first film. I saw the first film, I knew what it would be like, nothing new or exciting or astoundingly profound to be had in a sequel. It didn't matter who they added, the film would still focus mainly on the same team that, as written and presented in the first film, I didn't particularly care about. Sure, it was a passable experience when I did eventually watch it, but ultimately did I want to waste half an hour of transport time to the theater and back, paying $6-8 to see it only once plus the snacks? No, not really. For as interesting as "this film has the Silver Surfer in it" sounded, his inclusion wasn't to blame for me not wanting to see that movie in theaters. The expected quality of the film as a whole IN SPITE OF his presence was the cause. If the fault of my not wanting to see it had to rest on any characters (it wasn't, it was the interpretation of them for that film), it was the Fantastic Four themselves, not Silver Surfer.

tl;dr the message I remember reading was blaming poor sales on a character, when in reality, as these things always go, my personal experience for not filling a seat had nothing to do with what character they focused on. It was because the marketing failed to convince me that the story would make it worth watching. Sure, big names are more recognizable, but in the end it's how they're used that matters most, not whether or not you've heard of them fifty thousand times throughout your life.

X-FACTOR #241 & 242
Peter David (w) • Leonard Kirk (A)
Cover by DAVID YARDIN
• The first of five issues that will CHANGE THE FACE OF X-FACTOR FOREVER.
• PART I: A rejected Strong Guy does the unthinkable!
• PART II: Two characters you never thought would come face-to-face are finally reunited.
32 PGS. (EACH)/Rated T+ …$2.99 (EACH)

Cover image implies something major is going to happen with/to Lorna, given she's clutching her head in agony like someone's attacking her or she's having a headache or something. I hope this turns out to mean something meaningful and good happens with her use. Depending on what it is, it may also justify the annoying (to me, anyway) overemphasis on her relationship with Alex as a "couple" at a time when there are thousands of unanswered questions and dangling plotlines that have nothing to do with him. I recognize that it's sometimes necessary to spend time on something that's been done too much already to set the stage for something far greater.

Lorna and her mother or Lorna and Zaladane are possibilities. That or Siryn and Banshee.

I'd prefer Zaladane not used at all for now. As I've said before, Zaladane's greatest potential both with Lorna and as her own character requires full acceptance of Lorna as part of the Magnus family, along with building up those connections and including Lorna where she deserves to be included regardless of personal opinions held by people working at Marvel. Bringing back Zaladane right now would hurt both characters, and probably also hurt the added potential that Wanda, Pietro and Magneto would get from interactions with Lorna. It would be like cutting down a tree for its wood when it's not even five feet tall. Sure, you'll get a little bit of firewood, but at the loss of a much bigger payoff a decade or two later if you had just let it grow.

[jmc247]

Shateshat Nº NO POLARIS IN X-Factor 236

Yes, I did notice that, thanks anyway for sharing.

[jmc247]

Cover image implies something major is going to happen with/to Lorna, given she's clutching her head in agony like someone's attacking her or she's having a headache or something.

It brought back memories of the X-Position at the start of the year.

It's been eight years since readers learned that Polaris' mother died under suspicious circumstances. Now that's she's joining Marvel's premier detective agency, will she start to investigate it? Fans have been crying out for her definitive origin story for years…

Yeah, that's a tricky one, Derek. The real question is: was Magneto responsible for the death of her mother (and her mother's husband)? That would be a fairly explosive revelation, because if he is, then she basically is going to go to war with her father.

Polaris has always had a ticking time bomb element to her psyche, and such a reveal would detonate it big time. So the answer is: it depends on whether Marvel would be up for that, and if Lorna as a character could survive such a discovery.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=36233

[blanchett]

I think it'll be Rahne and her wolf kids. She had a baby that she abandoned, and there's an AU child of hers wandering around the MU. I don't think it'd be Lorna's mom, Zaladane, or Banshee, since they're all dead at the moment. I think that'd be kinda a big deal if they got resurrected, and it just doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon (unfortunately).

Yeah but Rahne interacting with her kids isn't a suprise. We knew that was going to happen. Lorna meeting her mother or Zala both women are apparently dead so it would fit this.

Two characters you never thought would come face-to-face are finally reunited.

I also don't see the return of Zaladane hurting Lorna and her relationship with Magneto and the twins...I don't think it will make a difference either way. Also if Lorna's mother is actually alive that means Magneto definately didn't kill her.

Something which might be happening is that there in Hela's realm and maybe they meet Ghosts. Siryn has a black bird on her arm, could be Loki/Ikol?

[Siryn]

Yeah but Rahne interacting with her kids isn't a suprise. We knew that was going to happen. Lorna meeting her mother or Zala both women are apparently dead so it would fit this.

I also don't see the return of Zaladane hurting Lorna and her relationship with Magneto and the twins...I don't think it will make a difference either way. Also if Lorna's mother is actually alive that means Magneto definately didn't kill her.

Something which might be happening is that there in Hela's realm and maybe they meet Ghosts. Siryn has a black bird on her arm, could be Loki/Ikol?

I think it'll be surprising for her kids to meet each other. She only thinks she has the one, no one knows about the AU kid yet.

[blanchett]

I think it'll be surprising for her kids to meet each other. She only thinks she has the one, no one knows about the AU kid yet.

But why would the solicit for the next issue be spoiled by the cover of the issue before it. We all knew Rahne was going to be meeting Vanora and Tier anyway. Them coming face to face is no shock, maybe for her, but not for the readers.

I just don't see how Rahne meeting the terrible two some really works for this solicit.

Two characters you never thought would come face-to-face are finally reunited.

[jmc247]

Sadly because this will be answered in the second issue of X-Factor's five issue mini out in late August we won't get the solicit for the issue until early August after X-Factor 241 comes out if the trend for not leaking the solicit or cover to the second issue of the month until the first issue comes out holds.

Anyway I am been trying to figure out which issue Lorna appears in for AvX. Issue 6 would seem to be the earliest and most likely place for her to appear given Olivier Coipel is drawing them. My best guess is it happens in issue 6 or 7.

[salarta]

It brought back memories of the X-Position at the start of the year.

I'm currently hoping the things remarked on in that earlier interview don't come to pass. As I understand it, Scarlet Witch was the one doing the hating Magneto thing, and Lorna having positive interaction with Magneto hasn't been explored anywhere near enough yet as it is. Plus I'd worry it would just be used as an excuse to exclude her from Magnus family storylines since "hurr durr she hates her dad why would she want to be involved in this storyline." I can say that if Peter David does pursue that "Magneto killed Lorna's biological mother and her stepdad" angle and it ends up absolutely murdering her potential as a character involving the Magnus family, then I will forever abhor both this stint for her on X-Factor and Peter David ever getting his hands on her again. As it stands right now, I'm negative toward him writing her but I can still end up liking his run if he writes her very well. I know he can write well in general thanks to that Spider-Man short I mentioned, after all.

I also don't see the return of Zaladane hurting Lorna and her relationship with Magneto and the twins...I don't think it will make a difference either way. Also if Lorna's mother is actually alive that means Magneto definately didn't kill her.

Something which might be happening is that there in Hela's realm and maybe they meet Ghosts. Siryn has a black bird on her arm, could be Loki/Ikol?

In general, optimistic terms, Zaladane returning right now wouldn't hurt Lorna and her relationships with anyone in the Magnus family. But we have to look at how both fandom and the people in charge at Marvel have reacted toward Lorna as part of the Magnus family. Tons of people complained about the reveal, mostly due to nostalgia, and that extends to certain editors and writers at Marvel that have said in the past year that they refuse to acknowledge Lorna as part of that family. We also have to couple those issues with the fact that the whole last decade was spent pretending the reveal of Polaris as Magneto's daughter never happened.

We're dealing with a creative atmosphere where it took a decade for anyone to write Lorna and Magneto even so much as thinking of each other, let alone saying anything about their family connection. She hasn't had a chance to say a single thing to Wanda or Pietro in the past decade either, nor has she learned anything at all about her heritage because it got pushed off during Five Miles South of the Universe for another time. With editors at Marvel still refusing to accept the potential Lorna brings to the Magnus family situation, and so much hesitation on Marvel's part to let Lorna say even one word to anyone in the Magnus family let alone have full-blown interactions with them, can we really say it's a good idea to revive Zaladane and have her claiming to be Lorna's sister (and by consequence, arouse speculation that she's also a daughter of Magneto)?

If Zaladane is revived right now, it will piss off far too many fans still blinded by nostalgia at a fragile time. Editors and writers that just might finally be willing to actually explore Lorna's potential will get instantly turned off from doing anything other than yet more storylines that revolve solely around Alex... if they write Lorna at all... because they'll feel like they need to "reaffirm" her "roots" as they see it tied to Alex. I started out this statement thinking it would only affect her Magnus family interaction, but then I realized while writing that it would also hurt any use other than as support for Alex as a kneejerk reaction. In the end, at best bringing back Zaladane right now would provide a brief story arc of Zaladane throwing a monkey wrench into the Magnus family confusion that falls far short of its full potential due to lack of willingness by readers to support Peter David and Marvel as a whole pursuing it all the way. Zaladane would likely also get killed off again not too long after because there would be no reason left to keep her around after that short dramatic stint. At worst, it would cause a full-out retcon of Lorna as Magneto's daughter and another decade or longer of Lorna completely in Alex's shadow.

I think there's a ton of potential behind Zaladane returning, and I'd love to see it used, but now is not the time. You need to be able to climb a jungle gym before climbing a mountain, and you need to be able to walk before you can run.

Sadly because this will be answered in the second issue of X-Factor's five issue mini out in late August we won't get the solicit for the issue until early August after X-Factor 241 comes out if the trend for not leaking the solicit or cover to the second issue of the month until the first issue comes out holds.

Anyway I am been trying to figure out which issue Lorna appears in for AvX. Issue 6 would seem to be the earliest and most likely place for her to appear given Olivier Coipel is drawing them. My best guess is it happens in issue 6 or 7.

I just thought of something. Perhaps Lorna gets a meaningful amount of interaction with the Magnus family in AvX, and that gets picked up and carried further by Peter David in X-Factor?