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  1. #6616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imraith Nimphais View Post
    And let us be honest...Even if Madrox and Layla are the "stars" of X-Factor, at least Polaris gets dialogue, panel time and relevance...much more so than if she was in any of the other "main" X-Titles currently, where she would be even less than "wall paper".
    I'm really hoping this sort of thing goes by the wayside. It's one of those dirty little vices that has been going about the x-books for the past half decade that really doesn't need to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoingGreen View Post
    I don't think anyone would argue that Lorna "needs" to be with PAD. But I will argue that Lorna needs to be with a writer that cares about her.

    To say Lorna would've been better off never having gone to X-Factor in 1991 is... ludicrous, in my opinion. Prior to that, she wasn't part of any cast. She was shuffled off on Muir Island, before that she was seen in the Savage land getting power-raped by her "sister, prior to that she was Malice, etc etc etc. She wasn't a main character or part of any core cast since the 70's. X-Factor brought her back. And after it ended, she spent a few years out of the spotlight before finally making a big return as a core cast in Uncanny in.. 2002(?) I mean, Claremont wrote Uncanny from 1975 until 1991. Lorna was very much NOT a featured character on any title from, specifically, 1975 until 1991. I just don't see how PAD gets even an ounce of resentment, when Lorna had pretty much zero development for the better part of 16 years prior to 1991 X-Factor.

    My only real resentment about how Lorna was handled is toward Claremont, honestly.
    I can see how a fan can get upset with her treatment during that period, but how many other silver age x-men got as much screen time during that period? I can only count Scott, Jean, Xavier and Alex (I guess Sean can be counted as well). The rest of the silver age crew recieved minor appearances or short little runs (Angel).

  2. #6617
    Lorna Lehnsherr
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    Perhaps While that's a good point, however the original 5, in 1986, spawned the new title X-Factor (which would later be graduated to d-listers, Polaris, Havok, and the rest). This was when creators were really starting to franchise the X-Men, and they went from 1 title to three (Uncanny, New Mutants, and X-Factor within the span of a few years). X-Factor was a very important comic when it started, brought us Apocalypse, brought us Archangel, the return of the "real" Jean, etc etc. And when the title was then transferred to Polaris and Havok, it was a way for them to get the same kind of "welcome back" that the O5 had. Because, in 1991 (the BIG franchising year), where did the O5 go? Back to the X-Men, because they were again seen as relevant. I think if PAD stayed on X-Factor longer, originally, Polaris and Havok would've stayed in the spotlight... but X-Factor went down hill at some point, and the stories weren't quite as withstanding / memorable. However, when Mutant X finally ended and Lorna was done with The Twelve stuff and done being an Acolyte, where did Havok and Polaris go? To the X-Men. (I think I'm just talking and interrupting myself a lot at this point - I'm on cold meds, sorry)

    In 1991, as mentioned, Lorna and Alex were editorially mandated to take over the X-Factor title. PAD happened to be the writer who obtained the title, and he wasn't exactly excited about it. I don't credit him for taking Lorna or creating her or whatever, but I do credit him for laying the foundations of who the character has become. She was THE powerhouse of X-Factor, she was THE spokesperson, and the only member of the team to stay from start to finish. That's pretty cool, in my opinion.

    Now that I think about it, I really am interested in understanding the publication notes behind the choices made on Polaris. Before the internet was what it is today, creators didn't get the same amount of overwhelming feedback. I wonder if there were a lot of fans clamoring through snailmail for Havok and Polaris...
    *Sigh of relief* Just checked, and yep... Polaris is still Magneto's daughter. Dodged another bullet.

  3. #6618
    Justified Ancient of MuMu yvahed's Avatar
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    Going Green you make some incredible points. I liked Lorna during the rare times we saw her in Claremont's run but it was obvious he had no idea what to do with her (until Malice). Much kudos to PAD for fleshing the character out. The editorial notes on Lorna would be very interesting. Following the reveal that she was indeed Mag's daughter they dodged that topic for 8 years until this year. I want to see her relationship with Wanda and Pietro fleshed out. Was cool to see her bonding with Luna (and Crystal) in WotK. Some time apart from Alex will be good but I think those two were meant to be together.

  4. #6619
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoingGreen View Post
    In 1991, as mentioned, Lorna and Alex were editorially mandated to take over the X-Factor title. PAD happened to be the writer who obtained the title, and he wasn't exactly excited about it. I don't credit him for taking Lorna or creating her or whatever, but I do credit him for laying the foundations of who the character has become. She was THE powerhouse of X-Factor, she was THE spokesperson, and the only member of the team to stay from start to finish. That's pretty cool, in my opinion.
    Those are things I am glad PAD did for Lorna. As well as giving her an origin story after 40-ish years.

  5. #6620
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    Some have long blamed Havok for her inability to break out. I think he has been bad for her and the perfect example of that is the second he rises up to A list Marvel breaks them up. If the Avengers suddenly say we don't want him any more... poof he will be back with Lorna. She doesn't rise and fall with him... she just falls with him like when they sent him on a bus in space for over a half decade they had to send Lorna off too... just cus he needs a green haired girlfriend around when he is B list to look better. When he is A list he needs to be open for romance... ie Lorna and Havok has to die. Oh and I loved how Marvel nixed Bru sending any important characters into space even for a year... we can't have any of the A listers going off into space for a year let alone over five years. Lorna? Sure who give a damn.

    I don't even think many of them at Marvel (I am not talking about all of them) view Lorna as a C lister right now and what is just as hard is the anger over her reduced status has caused all sorts of fights among Polaris fans, some of the worst and most hateful I have ever seen. It being clear her family relationships have suddenly been made irrevelent (likely as Brevoort wants to use ever issue to push the greatness of Wanda's parentage as he has been doing so far in Uncanny Avengers repeately) so for the foressable future her family relationships are again irrelevent and what more the things she said in X-Factor 245 just added greatly to fights among Polaris fans and this feeling of worry and unease.

    I am sorry I have been harsh with some Polaris fans in past weeks, I don't want conflict and I can't stand how hateful things have gotten about everything including one another and I take full blame for having my own moments of anger and deep doubt, not in public since around X-Factor 245, but my worries since that issue remain.

    Anway have been writing one 48 page graduate paper over the past 2 days and just finished 20 minutes again and I have been writing and 3 other ten page papers over the past three days. Right now my brain is shutting down... damn I am just happy most of it is over and Christmas break is a week away for me.
    Last edited by jmc247; 12-06-2012 at 04:22 PM.

  6. #6621

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    Seriously though, I feel like she a good showing with that rag-tag group in Murderworld..."[/QUOTE]

    She did. That was the first time we saw the true extent of her powers. Previously, she was mostly controlling metals and firing magetic-electrical bursts. I wasn't even sure she could erect a force field after the events of X-Men 97. I will say the most disappointing use of Polaris was in that lame story where Sabre-Tooth is tracking her in the desert. Of course, by this story, Claremont had already jumped the shark.

  7. #6622
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Yeah I loved that she was able to find Murderworld through the use of her powers, it was pretty creative. And yes, her defeat at the hands of Sabretooth is (IMO) the most humiliating moment for the character. Even more so than her several losses against Storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Anway have been writing one 48 page graduate paper over the past 2 days and just finished 20 minutes again and I have been writing and 3 other ten page papers over the past three days. Right now my brain is shutting down... damn I am just happy most of it is over and Christmas break is a week away for me.
    I feel ya on that one.

  8. #6623
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    The pain is almost over... one more week.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Yeah I loved that she was able to find Murderworld through the use of her powers, it was pretty creative. And yes, her defeat at the hands of Sabretooth is (IMO) the most humiliating moment for the character. Even more so than her several losses against Storm.
    Oh, hell yes. It almost seemed like Claremont was sick or off for a week or two and X-Men 146 was written by a late Silver Age X-Men fan... hell even Ice Man was really respected in the issue and Claremont virtually never did that. Lorna was a totally different character then Claremont ever wrote her in his first run before or after that issue. The Lorna in X-Men 146 was very very much a return of Silver Age Lorna and almost the anti-Claremontian Lorna.



    The battle below was Claremontian Lorna... worthless, stupid, cowardly and weak. The kind of character fans at the time I am sure wanted to see Storm just smash her skull and get rid of this worthless fembot.

    Claremont wanted Lorna to be the anti-Storm in every way (as long as she was the Mistress of Magnetism).



    I know hard core fanboys of certain characters and I know what having certain having fanboy urges are like myself (not extreme enough to ever ruin other characters to help build up the ones I like) it couldn't be any more obvious what the writer was saying and doing.



    To translate the scene in thought bubbles. Look at how amazing and awsome Storm is. She is a true goddess... go Storm smash the skull of this worthless character. What an awsome scene Storm kicks so much ass... screw this Lorna character.

    That is what the message was toward Lorna... obviously X-Men 146 was such an amazing exception... lets put it this way... X-Men 146 was a depiction of Lorna that was kick ass enough that if Lorna was a more regular x-woman depicted like that she would have been able to compete with Storm over fans looking for strong female energy minipulating mutant queen like figures... but that was the main thing Claremont wanted to avoid at all costs and decided towards the end of his run he could only write Lorna consistently as a strong character if he got rid of her power, made her a She-Hulk like character, and changed her code name away from Polaris (which he was planning to do).

    Claremont was overall very respectful to female Marvel characters... but Lorna was the extreme exception because of his love of a certain weather minipulator and Claremont knows what Magneto and Lorna's powers should allow them to do in a way most Marvel writers usually do not. He knew Lorna should be able to fry a character like Saberthooth above with a thought. But, he wrote her like that above IMHO pretty clearly because he did not want fans to like the character.

    Not to be too negative about things, but Lorna will likely never recover as a character because in the so called Golden Age of the x-books the main writer actually in my view wanted fans to look down on the character if not openly dislike her... and that mindset about her stuck with the massives of casual comic buying fans.

    Her one chance at this point is Lorna getting an important role in the X-Men film franchise and being played by someone the masses fall in love with. Only as we see with X-Men Days of Future Past the chance of that looks like its been killed because Fox is back to pushing the 'popular' X-Men over giving new characters a shot like they did in X-Men First Class.
    Last edited by jmc247; 12-07-2012 at 02:55 AM.

  9. #6624
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Well what do you....Havok is added to the Super Hero Squad Online game and of course Lorna is no where to be seen even in the near future.
    https://www.heroup.com/2012/12/havok-is-now-available/

  10. #6625
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Well what do you....Havok is added to the Super Hero Squad Online game and of course Lorna is no where to be seen even in the near future.
    https://www.heroup.com/2012/12/havok-is-now-available/
    Par for the course.

    It's why of late there has been so much discontentment as its become increasingly clear Havok is respected by Marvel and the companies that work with them and have deals with them and Lorna is viewed as a non character that is best ignored or at worst a character that is a threat to Storm and Wanda's specialness.

    Lorna will never grow in popularity as long as she is viewed as at best a character that should be ignored and at worst a character that should have the important aspects of the character removed, ignored or retconned because they get in the way of the specialness of other characters that they believe matter like Wanda.

  11. #6626
    He Who Eats Spoons salarta's Avatar
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    Marvel seems to have a pretty consistent pattern that if they see something about Lorna that is drawing popularity and attention toward her, they try to rip it out of her character and pass it on to a different one to get all the glory while she gets nothing out of it. They don't seem to regard her as an actual character, but a guinea pig experiment playground, and don't seem to see her fans as a grand potential audience, but instead as a group that deserves disdain that equals what they have for the character herself.

    I'm sure for the most part people at Marvel don't wake up every day deliberately thinking "I want to take what tons of our fans love and ruin it," but they seem to do it anyway.

    What's the record for Lorna? She was originally introduced as a tough, strong woman following the realization of her abilities, only to have that attitude ripped away from her to ensure she couldn't outshine Storm. Suddenly, a character that got introduced as a capable ally against Magneto couldn't even face Sabretooth without acting like a frightened child. Then, Claremont tried to go the distance by literally having Zaladane STEAL her powers from her. While that thankfully was undone, Lorna ended up with something else taken away from her: all secondary mutation abilities. She was one of the first character to display secondary mutations, but once Marvel was ready to put it to greater use, they took those mutations away from her and has never acknowledged that she ever had them before the likes of Emma Frost or Beast got them. Next, we had the awesome House of M event, and Polaris was finally allowed to play a meaningful role in events... but game designers tore that away from her in X-Men Legends II and gave it to Wanda.

    And now we have everything that's happened in the past half a year. Marvel is purposely trying to bury the fact she's one of Magneto's daughters in spite of the overwhelming interest in seeing her explore that side of her character, and as if to mock the very notion of her fans seeing that happen for the character, they're seem to be letting Agent Brand spend more time with Magneto, and on top of it, more or less want to make her the most well known green-haired mutant in the Marvel universe.

    I don't think it's paranoid to think at this point that whether consciously or subconsciously, tearing down Lorna and any fans of her is ingrained into their culture. They have a pattern where if Lorna shows the slightest inkling of potential and growing fan interest, they do just about everything in their power to destroy or sabotage it.

    It's also why I'm starting to view Marvel with the same disdain they clearly have for Lorna as a character and me as a fan. Instead of realizing what they could do with a character with so much promise and so many options, Marvel prefers to tear her down and slap her fans in the face. It's given me this perception of Marvel and most of the people working there as being deeply petty and hateful people that loathe letting their fans have nice things unless those nice things match their personal desires and interests. I don't expect nor would I ever want Marvel to make Storm look like a pathetic weakling, or make Wanda's heritage as one of Magneto's daughter illegitimate or unused, but by the same token I don't want them to do that to Lorna out of a hateful desire to keep her from being a character of actual worth that could stand as an equal to Wanda and Storm.

    When I started reading Marvel comics with Lorna in them a few years ago, I saw a bright, shining company full of wonders I'd never noticed in the past, something I could explore and enjoy as I uncovered decades worth of story and possibilities. Now... Marvel doesn't look like a creative promised land to me anymore. It looks like an ugly, hateful band of self-serving types that often times have no respect for their own characters and IPs or their own fans unless those characters, IPs or fans scratch a specific itch they have. There appears to be no sense of loving a certain character but still treating all others with respect and doing right by those characters. Everything I've seen has told me too many writers and editors at Marvel respond to characters that they see as "rivals" of their chosen favorite by tearing those characters down into nobodies, or that they'll try to "punish" fans that say something they don't like by taking it out on the character like a thug trying to silence those fans rather than understand where those fans are coming from.

    That's not an attitude and culture I can bring myself to support. Other people can overlook such things for the sake of a story, but I can't. Lorna could be the queen of every Marvel universe event in the future, but if it meant characters and fans of many other characters would have to suffer through what Polaris fans have had to endure for decades, I couldn't bring myself to buy Marvel comics. That's why I'm not buying them now. Some people think being a fan means buying and reading anything a character is in no matter how you feel about it, but I don't. I think being a fan means encouraging characters to be treated better, and encouraging creators to be better people as a whole, even if it sometimes means being overly harsh about it to get the message across. But of course, a person has to want to change for the better... and I don't think anyone at Marvel wants to do that. I think they just want to make their readers accept whatever they say and do without question. Maybe that's just the way comic book culture is, but it's something abhorrent to me. And it's too bad, because there was a time when I was really excited to get into the Marvel universe. But given how much disdain Marvel appears to have for the character I like most and sometimes for fans of her, I don't think I will ever be able to feel that excited about a Marvel comic, film, video game, etc ever again.

    And honestly, I think that if any people at Marvel actually knew I existed, they would be delighted to know they made me not want to buy their comics anymore. I don't think they value alternative viewpoints and criticism. I think they see such things as threats, and they'd rather have thousands of fans that will go along with anything they do over millions of readers that will challenge them.
    X-Poster of July 24th, 2013, 6:09:32 PM

  12. #6627
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    That is what the message was toward Lorna... obviously X-Men 146 was such an amazing exception... lets put it this way... X-Men 146 was a depiction of Lorna that was kick ass enough that if Lorna was a more regular x-woman depicted like that she would have been able to compete with Storm over fans looking for strong female energy minipulating mutant queen like figures... but that was the main thing Claremont wanted to avoid at all costs and decided towards the end of his run he could only write Lorna consistently as a strong character if he got rid of her power, made her a She-Hulk like character, and changed her code name away from Polaris (which he was planning to do).

    Claremont was overall very respectful to female Marvel characters... but Lorna was the extreme exception because of his love of a certain weather minipulator and Claremont knows what Magneto and Lorna's powers should allow them to do in a way most Marvel writers usually do not. He knew Lorna should be able to fry a character like Saberthooth above with a thought. But, he wrote her like that above IMHO pretty clearly because he did not want fans to like the character.

    Not to be too negative about things, but Lorna will likely never recover as a character because in the so called Golden Age of the x-books the main writer actually in my view wanted fans to look down on the character if not openly dislike her... and that mindset about her stuck with the massives of casual comic buying fans.
    I noticed a similar vibe from Dazzler when Claremont wrote her. She was kind of an air-headed bimbo and not suprisingly she had a form of energy manipulating powers.
    Understandably writers have their biases and only want to make the characters they like look cool to the fans, it just really sucks that Lorna sucked hard during Claremont's first run. I really wish Claremont could've just made two X-Men books (one featuring the team from UXM 146 of course) and then we probably wouldn't have seen such a weak character.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Par for the course.

    It's why of late there has been so much discontentment as its become increasingly clear Havok is respected by Marvel and the companies that work with them and have deals with them and Lorna is viewed as a non character that is best ignored or at worst a character that is a threat to Storm and Wanda's specialness.

    Lorna will never grow in popularity as long as she is viewed as at best a character that should be ignored and at worst a character that should have the important aspects of the character removed, ignored or retconned because they get in the way of the specialness of other characters that they believe matter like Wanda.
    It's pretty much like you said earlier that Lorna never gets to rise with Alex, she only falls.

  13. #6628
    Senior Member zulu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
    I'm merely pointing out that Peter David has spent a long time with Polaris (longer than any other Marvel writer).

    Whether or not fans enjoy what he did with her is completely irrelevant. No one associates her conception with David, but no one can argue that he invested a great deal of time with the character.

    Holding resentment that she was placed on a regular book and handled by a good writer (as opposed to nothing) is just silly.
    It's to PADs credit that Polaris is a solid nobody. If he was not a strong writer, and if his stories were not memorable, his Polaris would not have been notable or desired by fans. But because of his skill as a writer, coupled with the fact that Polaris was a character that was practically a blank slate, she was for the first time since her introduction a consistently featured character. So it's totally understandable when fans say that being on a title with a-listers is bad or PAD not writing her would be a bad alternative because PAD cemented himself as a writer that will take care of his d-listers. So Polaris is doomed because she's safe under his pen and because her development is restricted to the same nobody characters. It just deepens the pit, making it always make sense to interact with these nobody characters over connections with greater potential like her family and other relevant characters.

  14. #6629
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    Quote Originally Posted by zulu View Post
    It's to PADs credit that Polaris is a solid nobody. If he was not a strong writer, and if his stories were not memorable, his Polaris would not have been notable or desired by fans. But because of his skill as a writer, coupled with the fact that Polaris was a character that was practically a blank slate, she was for the first time since her introduction a consistently featured character. So it's totally understandable when fans say that being on a title with a-listers is bad or PAD not writing her would be a bad alternative because PAD cemented himself as a writer that will take care of his d-listers. So Polaris is doomed because she's safe under his pen and because her development is restricted to the same nobody characters. It just deepens the pit, making it always make sense to interact with these nobody characters over connections with greater potential like her family and other relevant characters.
    No its not to PAD's credit that she is viewed as a D lister by so many. He didn't ask for Lorna and the rest on his first run, he was expecting to be writing Jean, Scott and the rest from the first X-Factor team. I suspect that was why Lorna fell so easily into the role of Jean Grey of the team and Havok the Scott of the team.

    If you want to blame anyone or group for why Lorna is viewed as not an X-Men and not important the main blame goes to Claremont and editoral over the years. The reasons are obvious in the case of Claremont, less so for editoral. It was the editors that decided not to have Lorna on one of the X-Men titles in the start of the 90s and placed her on X-Factor with Alex making it certain even if PAD didn't put them in relationship that the next set of X-Factor writers would.

    Lorna last decade was starting to be viewed as a X-woman that mattered. What happened? Brubaker sent her off into space then after he was done she stayed there longer then it takes for most people to finish college. Its hard to know who decided to just dump her there for over a half decade, but I personally suspect it was more editorals decision then Brubaker's. Even if Bru wanted it to happen (which I don't know is true) editoral had the final say and let it happen. That effectively killed all the effort various writers from 1999-2005 put into making her a revelent part of the X-Men and Marvel as a whole.
    Last edited by jmc247; 12-08-2012 at 06:06 PM.

  15. #6630
    Mistress of Magnetism Mitteloss's Avatar
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    What were people's thoughts on X-Factor #248? This is the first time we've seen Lorna since #245, which is nice.

    I thought her depiction was alright on the whole- I think PAD is continuing the trend of some stable characterization, which is nice... she hasn't changed much since Emperor Vulcan (bar the last two issues of WoK).

    I've always appreciated the humble, human characterizations PAD has given some of his characters which is an asset of the title (Siryn, Rictor)... but I am critical of the satirical, comical tone of the title. It's cheesy and the characters largely come across as two-dimensional (bar perhaps Layla and Madrox), and the part where Lorna hit Pip/M really struck me a silly, out of character moment in which Lorna's common sense was sacrificed for 'comic' relief.. I guess it was an insubstantial moment, but I prefer the humour less overt and infrequent, as that is when its most effective. It seemed that Lorna only ever came across as rational when another character needed to look thick. This happens alot. Otherwise she tends to come across as being unnecessarily aggressive. They're verging on caricatures.

    It's annoying, I want her to be taken a tad more seriously! I agree with some of the others, that in the long-term, X-Factor won't be the best book for her to be in if we really want to see Lorna in more interesting situations that would bring out some depth in her character, but for the moment I am cautious about her venturing much outside of X-Factor because I am not sure there's if truly anything better for her. X-Factor may not be the best book, but it will have to do for the time being as far as I'm concerned. It isn't so black and white.

    Anyhow- on the whole, it wasn't so bad. I actually like her costume, though I'm still not totally sold on the colour scheme.
    Last edited by Mitteloss; 12-08-2012 at 06:44 PM.
    "We can fight all day, Sunfire. But I still won't belong to anyone- but myself. And it's been a while since I've been able to say that."- Polaris, X-Men #187.

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