Polaris Appreciation III

[Havok83]

What do you guys think of the idea of Lorna joining the Avengers? The tension between the Avengers and the X-men/mutantkind has been heightened due to AvX and bound to be severely damaged. What if she decides to join the team to help alleviate that. Sure they have Beast and Storm on the lineup (Wolverine is most likely out) but unlike them she would play a more active role in being a representative for mutant rights and their image, something neither really have used their status as Avengers to help improve. The Avengers image is about to be damaged as well due to Scott releasing the Avenger Protocols to the press.

The way I can see it is after AvX when the teams are fractured and looking to reorganize, Quicksilver actually suggests they ask her to join and Cap decides its a good idea to help fix the Avengers' public image following what Scott did. Some members probably might object bc she is Magneto's daughter and stood by his side in Genosha as an Acolyte but Wanda would remind them that they once took a chance on her and Pietro when they did the same

This might cause a rift between she and Havok if he doesnt fully trust the Avengers or think highly of them following their actions towards the X-men in AvX. Lorna however would stick to her guns, follow her heart and go where she feels she would be most useful. Just imagine all the new connections and characters she would be interacting with from across the Marvel Universe.

What do you guys think?

[blanchett]

I won't say it influenced Havok's depiction and feelings about Magneto in Legacy 12 years later, but they were the exact same in Legacy in that regardless of what universe we are dealing or what situation Havok let's just say will never not dislike or distrust Magneto.

Actually he got on great with Magneto from the Mutant X world later on. That one hadn't tacked up the kind of bodycount that 616 Magneto had.

What do you guys think of the idea of Lorna joining the Avengers? The tension between the Avengers and the X-men/mutantkind has been heightened due to AvX and bound to be severely damaged. What if she decides to join the team to help alleviate that. Sure they have Beast and Storm on the lineup (Wolverine is most likely out) but unlike them she would play a more active role in being a representative for mutant rights and their image, something neither really have used their status as Avengers to help improve. The Avengers image is about to be damaged as well due to Scott releasing the Avenger Protocols to the press.

The way I can see it is after AvX when the teams are fractured and looking to reorganize, Quicksilver actually suggests they ask her to join and Cap decides its a good idea to help fix the Avengers' public image following what Scott did. Some members probably might object bc she is Magneto's daughter and stood by his side in Genosha as an Acolyte but Wanda would remind them that they once took a chance on her and Pietro when they did the same

This might cause a rift between she and Havok if he doesnt fully trust the Avengers or think highly of them following their actions towards the X-men in AvX. Lorna however would stick to her guns, follow her heart and go where she feels she would be most useful. Just imagine all the new connections and characters she would be interacting with from across the Marvel Universe.

What do you guys think?

I don't object to her joining the Avegners but not to improve their image. I can't imagine she's a media darling. I can just imagine a Bugle headline now "High profile government agent defects to terrorist father's island"....

[jmc247]

Lorna in X-Factor 235? Only in a page see in X-POSITION: David Investigates "X-Factor," Relationships, & "AvX"

I just read it. That was Lorna's one scene, she plays the role of Alex's advisor and the good of it was we saw a small spark of the Lorna of last decade who is in favor of being proactive not just reactive as she tended to be in the 70s thru 90s, but that was about it Lorna wise.

[jmc247]

What do you guys think of the idea of Lorna joining the Avengers? The tension between the Avengers and the X-men/mutantkind has been heightened due to AvX and bound to be severely damaged. What if she decides to join the team to help alleviate that. Sure they have Beast and Storm on the lineup (Wolverine is most likely out) but unlike them she would play a more active role in being a representative for mutant rights and their image, something neither really have used their status as Avengers to help improve. The Avengers image is about to be damaged as well due to Scott releasing the Avenger Protocols to the press.

The way I can see it is after AvX when the teams are fractured and looking to reorganize, Quicksilver actually suggests they ask her to join and Cap decides its a good idea to help fix the Avengers' public image following what Scott did. Some members probably might object bc she is Magneto's daughter and stood by his side in Genosha as an Acolyte but Wanda would remind them that they once took a chance on her and Pietro when they did the same

This might cause a rift between she and Havok if he doesnt fully trust the Avengers or think highly of them following their actions towards the X-men in AvX. Lorna however would stick to her guns, follow her heart and go where she feels she would be most useful. Just imagine all the new connections and characters she would be interacting with from across the Marvel Universe.

What do you guys think?

I would support it as she has never been an Avenger, hell she has never even crossed over to the Avengers which she has done for virtually every other major Marvel comic title including F4, Hulk, the Defenders, Captain America, Dr. Strange, etc.

I have long before Tom B made any statements on Lorna believed they had a beef with her being too Wanda like and this was before her parentage was re-established as well. Right now the Avengers are Marvel's main franchise and if Lorna isn't in XMF #2 I would support her joining the Avengers as it would finally show Lorna can exist on her own for a few years without a man guiding her. Most importantly it would show the Avengers franchise that Lorna and Wanda compliment instead of take away from each other. Or more to the point that Lorna doesn't take away from Wanda and her specialness.



If Lorna is in XMF #2 then I support her staying on the x-books solely until the FC film franchise ends.

[salarta]

Lorna's image along with her name is a trademarked property. It actually does bring in money for Marvel thanks to statues, toys, etc. I think people need to remember that a bit more often when considering massive changes to the character. Meaning her code name and other big features of the character.

I am hoping Lorna TM the trademark grows in popularity again over the next couple years. It was growing big time from 2003-2005 and it's been downhill since then. Had Disney not killed off WATXM by cutting Marvel animations budget it would have had a shot of doing for Lorna what TAS did for characters in the 90s or better as season 3 was supposed to be HoM.

The decision to keep Lorna and Alex in space another two years was made at right about the same time WATXM was axed and I can't help other then think the two things were interlinked. Lorna was getting a big push in 2009 when WATXM was going on in the comics 616 and AU and then it just stopped.

Fully agree with you on her name and image as a trademark. This is why I'm cool with Lorna not having a secondary color even though I think she really needs it, and would prefer to see her get it. Not that I wouldn't be fine with her lacking a secondary color without that, but it just makes it that much easier to go with it. The trade-off is that at least by sticking with a common look for a long time, like Wolverine and Cyclops and Emma Frost and such have had, Lorna gets noticed more. It's also why neither of my Lorna commissions so far have included my ideal of Lorna wearing gold wristbands, a gold headdress, etc. I think they would look great on her and really help her stand out, but it's not what Marvel is doing with her, and pursuing that secondary color would make it harder for people that aren't yet fans of her to recognize who she is and buy stuff that has her in it.

What do you guys think of the idea of Lorna joining the Avengers? The tension between the Avengers and the X-men/mutantkind has been heightened due to AvX and bound to be severely damaged. What if she decides to join the team to help alleviate that. Sure they have Beast and Storm on the lineup (Wolverine is most likely out) but unlike them she would play a more active role in being a representative for mutant rights and their image, something neither really have used their status as Avengers to help improve. The Avengers image is about to be damaged as well due to Scott releasing the Avenger Protocols to the press.

The way I can see it is after AvX when the teams are fractured and looking to reorganize, Quicksilver actually suggests they ask her to join and Cap decides its a good idea to help fix the Avengers' public image following what Scott did. Some members probably might object bc she is Magneto's daughter and stood by his side in Genosha as an Acolyte but Wanda would remind them that they once took a chance on her and Pietro when they did the same

This might cause a rift between she and Havok if he doesnt fully trust the Avengers or think highly of them following their actions towards the X-men in AvX. Lorna however would stick to her guns, follow her heart and go where she feels she would be most useful. Just imagine all the new connections and characters she would be interacting with from across the Marvel Universe.

What do you guys think?

If you hadn't mentioned Lorna's stance on mutant rights factoring into it, I might have been more hesitant, since I really like Lorna most as a defender and advocate of mutant rights. That would be an excellent spot for her, I think.

There are a few trade-offs. In principle, I would absolutely love for Lorna to become a member of the Avengers. She would undoubtedly get a lot more respect in storylines and for her potential as a character, and more people would get to find out she exists and how much she can contribute to the Marvel universe. I've said before that Marvel not really making good use of Lorna so far has resulted in me still not really caring about any characters and books that don't involve her, and her joining the Avengers would be a prime chance to get me invested in all sorts of areas of the Marvel universe at once.

But that's also dependent on how it's handled. Brevoort is in charge of the Avengers, and last Fall he said a lot of things that kill a lot of my faith that he would acknowledge all the amazing things Lorna could do for him and his books. He didn't seem to have much, if any, respect for Lorna or her character development over the past decade. I wouldn't want to see Lorna added to the Avengers if the guy running the show won't be open-minded to everything she has to offer, or worse, if he uses it as an opportunity to ruin the character. I would rather see her lower key in the hands of someone that cares about and respects her than on a big name title shown off everywhere but portrayed in a destructive, mean-spirited way.

Also if Lorna did join the Avengers, I would like her to still get to take part in X-Men events where meaningful and relevant if possible. Just with Magneto alone, Lorna still has a lot that can be pursued.

I don't object to her joining the Avegners but not to improve their image. I can't imagine she's a media darling. I can just imagine a Bugle headline now "High profile government agent defects to terrorist father's island"....

The most recent issue of X-Factor had her nearly treated like a media darling. There was a mob with flashing cameras and everything. Plus Lorna's had similar moments in X-Factor back in the 90s. And yeah, that's the Bugle. :P The Bugle is made of fail, that's why it's funny.

[Mitteloss]

My concern is that if she joins the Avengers Lorna would lose her sense of identity (as a character). She's never really been a straightforward hero- I would be happy for her to join the Avengers under her own independent agenda (not necessarily one that is threatening the Avengers) ... it would put her in an interesting place and really further her character- similarly to her role on Genosha, particularly during Dark Seduction and following where she was rather independent in her alignment. It would be interesting if they gave her the same purpose and direction she had early last decade.

Otherwise I would be just happy for her to be an X-Woman in any decent capacity... at the moment though I would rather her be on WaTXM/Legacy.

I never saw the similarity between Wanda and Lorna. Wanda always seemed to me a more secretive, reserved, private person- 'still waters run deep' type. Lorna is usually more straightforward, sociable and direct... she's also generally less emotional and in touch with her emotions it seems... that's until she loses it and it all comes to the surface- both to her and others!

[jmc247]

My concern is that if she joins the Avengers Lorna would lose her sense of identity (as a character). She's never really been a straightforward hero- I would be happy for her to join the Avengers under her own independent agenda (not necessarily one that is threatening the Avengers) ... it would put her in an interesting place and really further her character- similarly to her role on Genosha, particularly during Dark Seduction and following where she was rather independent in her alignment. It would be interesting if they gave her the same purpose and direction she had early last decade.

Otherwise I would be just happy for her to be an X-Woman in any decent capacity... at the moment though I would rather her be on WaTXM/Legacy.

I never saw the similarity between Wanda and Lorna. Wanda always seemed to me a more secretive, reserved, private person- 'still waters run deep' type. Lorna is usually more straightforward, sociable and direct... she's also generally less emotional and in touch with her emotions it seems... that's until she loses it and it all comes to the surface- both to her and others!

Some people see characters through their powers, some see them through their relationships, some through their personalities, some see them through the era of their creation or a certain writer who developed them.

Anyway I agree Lorna could use something that drives her again.

[Mitteloss]

Some people see characters through their powers, some see them through their relationships, some through their personalities, some see them through the era of their creation or a certain writer who developed them.

Anyway I agree Lorna could use something that drives her again.

I see what you mean there. :P Well the two worked quite well together on Exiles- that said Exiles Polaris was one confident, headstrong person which enhanced the contrast. I don't think they really compliment each other on a team though in 616- but they do as sisters- I think Lorna would in fact be of greater value to Wanda in terms of providing supporting friendship initially and that would eventually benefit Lorna later.

[PwrdOff]

The problem with having Wanda and Lorna in a comic together is that while there are some differences in their personalities, relative to other characters they are essentially interchangeable, not to mention that their costumes are essentially palette swaps. Plus, any interaction between them would probably center around Magneto in some way, and there are already enough stories about what an awful father he is. The above argument also works if you substitute "Jean" for "Wanda," "Summers brothers" for "Magneto" and "boyfriend" for "father." Of course this hasn't stopped Marvel from promoting the likes of Red Hulk, so who knows. I'd personally love to read a comic where Lorna teams up with Wanda and Jean and just go crazy on the entire MU, but most likely it'd just be fucking terrible.

[jmc247]

The problem with having Wanda and Lorna in a comic together is that while there are some differences in their personalities, relative to other characters they are essentially interchangeable, not to mention that their costumes are essentially palette swaps. Plus, any interaction between them would probably center around Magneto in some way, and there are already enough stories about what an awful father he is. The above argument also works if you substitute "Jean" for "Wanda," "Summers brothers" for "Magneto" and "boyfriend" for "father." Of course this hasn't stopped Marvel from promoting the likes of Red Hulk, so who knows. I'd personally love to read a comic where Lorna teams up with Wanda and Jean and just go crazy on the entire MU, but most likely it'd just be fucking terrible.

It's already happened AU.

[jmc247]

I see what you mean there. :P Well the two worked quite well together on Exiles- that said Exiles Polaris was one confident, headstrong person which enhanced the contrast. I don't think they really compliment each other on a team though in 616- but they do as sisters- I think Lorna would in fact be of greater value to Wanda in terms of providing supporting friendship initially and that would eventually benefit Lorna later.

I really see more potental there then just them being BFFs, lots of potental for conflict and drama is there regarding Wanda's actions and that is just scratching the surface. The problem is a lack of imagination and a lack of a 616 template for their relationship that writers can look to for guidance.

[bongy]

What do you guys think of the idea of Lorna joining the Avengers? The tension between the Avengers and the X-men/mutantkind has been heightened due to AvX and bound to be severely damaged. What if she decides to join the team to help alleviate that. Sure they have Beast and Storm on the lineup (Wolverine is most likely out) but unlike them she would play a more active role in being a representative for mutant rights and their image, something neither really have used their status as Avengers to help improve. The Avengers image is about to be damaged as well due to Scott releasing the Avenger Protocols to the press.

The way I can see it is after AvX when the teams are fractured and looking to reorganize, Quicksilver actually suggests they ask her to join and Cap decides its a good idea to help fix the Avengers' public image following what Scott did. Some members probably might object bc she is Magneto's daughter and stood by his side in Genosha as an Acolyte but Wanda would remind them that they once took a chance on her and Pietro when they did the same

This might cause a rift between she and Havok if he doesnt fully trust the Avengers or think highly of them following their actions towards the X-men in AvX. Lorna however would stick to her guns, follow her heart and go where she feels she would be most useful. Just imagine all the new connections and characters she would be interacting with from across the Marvel Universe.

What do you guys think?

Even though I'm not a fan of the Avengers, I've always thought that it would be a good team for Lorna to join for 3 reasons:
1. It would get me to read the book.
2. It would give Polaris more respect as a character.
3. It would give Polaris much deeper roots in the Marvel universe.

This reminds me of that old Exiles issue where Polaris was with the Vampire Avengers. I thought she looked so awesome standing next to Captain America and the others. I think Lorna would be a great representation of the mutant community even if she is the daughter of Magneto. She could show the world that she doesn't agree with her father's former terrorist past. Also, Polaris talked to the press in her X-Factor days so she knows how to spin a story.

[salarta]

The problem with having Wanda and Lorna in a comic together is that while there are some differences in their personalities, relative to other characters they are essentially interchangeable, not to mention that their costumes are essentially palette swaps. Plus, any interaction between them would probably center around Magneto in some way, and there are already enough stories about what an awful father he is. The above argument also works if you substitute "Jean" for "Wanda," "Summers brothers" for "Magneto" and "boyfriend" for "father." Of course this hasn't stopped Marvel from promoting the likes of Red Hulk, so who knows. I'd personally love to read a comic where Lorna teams up with Wanda and Jean and just go crazy on the entire MU, but most likely it'd just be fucking terrible.

I would disagree even with me not knowing much about Scarlet Witch beyond comics that have included Lorna.

Wanda has a lot of past interaction with Avengers characters, she's closer to Pietro, and her actions on M-Day caused a whole lot of ripples that influence how many people would see and interact with her. My understanding of her has been more of a global character that happens to be a mutant. That might be mistaken, because again I haven't read much of Scarlet Witch outside the issues that have Lorna in them. And if it's mistaken then I hope someone corrects me so I don't go around saying things that are blatantly wrong.

Lorna, despite not getting anywhere near the amount of use she deserves, has a firmer stake with mutants and mutant rights than Wanda. While Wanda may be more keen to depower a ton of mutants (albeit while not in her right mind), Lorna is more likely to defend them and feel tormented if she fails. In the storylines I've read where she got to be her own character, and not just wallpaper or a parrot for Alex, she places high value on being a mutant and protecting the rights and lives of other mutants. She even nearly got herself killed trying to "reawaken" her powers, and got turned into Pestilence in large part as a result of her deep need to reclaim them. Because of this, if Lorna is used properly, she would have more connections on the mutant-specific, X-Men side than Wanda.

That presents some underlying potential conflicts between the two of them depending on their situation, that can be pursued even without Magneto around. But Magneto does give them a common ground that can add even more drama to any conflict they have. And when I say conflict, yes, it could mean physical combat, but it could also just mean conflicts of philosophy, which is something almost any actually good fictional relationships will have at some point or another. It would be absurd to expect two characters to completely agree with each other at every second of every day.

All of which shows that Lorna could have held a much more powerful and exciting role in Avengers vs X-Men; while Lorna certainly isn't an avatar for the X-Men franchise, she does present a sort of "flip side" to Wanda that could have been played up to great dramatic effect, a longer story arc for AvX, and likely tons more in sales.

Oh, and the "costumes are palette swaps" thing isn't really a problem. I recall two fictional characters that really were palette swaps for each other, Kitana and Mileena in Mortal Kombat. Also Sub-Zero and Scorpion. Having similar costumes with different colors helps to play up the relationship between those characters more, however that relationship plays out. I suspect this is a fair bit of why cosplayers for Lorna have been seen very often tagging along beside someone dressed as Wanda; in addition to recent stories building stronger ties between them, they're also visually similar but still very distinct and individual.

I really see more potental there then just them being BFFs, lots of potental for conflict and drama is there regarding Wanda's actions and that is just scratching the surface. The problem is a lack of imagination and a lack of a 616 template for their relationship that writers can look to for guidance.

I don't think it's really lack of imagination. Imagination is a neat thing, when someone is open-minded, they will see meaningful connections and elements and build on them. I think it's more accurate to say there's a lack of appreciation for Lorna within Marvel from the people with the most power there, proven by some of the remarks made by certain editors and writers at the company in the past. With appreciation for a character, comes a willingness to see that character's vast potential. Wanda's growing role for the Avengers franchise is a prime example. Someone could have written her off as nothing more than Magneto's daughter and refused to use her, but Marvel instead saw what her reality-based abilities could do for them when expanded and turned her into the focal point of a major franchise event that radically changed the fictional universe.

Appreciation spurs imagination and opportunities. It's not much different from what happens to relationships and people when they're neglected by other people or society. They fall into disrepair and it becomes an endless cycle of loss until someone decides to step up and reverse course. The difference is that being a fictional character, Lorna can't exactly walk up to an editor and demand she get written better and provided more opportunities to show her stuff. It's up to fans of the character to fill that void when the writers and editors aren't checking things out for themselves.

[PwrdOff]

The specifics of their on-panel histories isn't as important as the conception of the character and the role they are meant to fill in the cast. Wanda and Lorna were both created to be passive damsels in distress like all Marvel females from the 1960s, and no matter how they are developed they still don't really stack up well to more modern depictions of women even in the male-dominated superhero genre.

If you want an example just look at the Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon, where their roles were essentially reversed but it still didn't really feel too far out of character for either of them. Given that Wanda is the older sister, it actually works better to cast her as the more assertive one and Lorna as the naive ingenue. Of course even Wanda was just there to be a pretty damsel too, I believe in the Mojo episode he even called her out on it.

Of course anyone could be given more depth and personality, but that would require them to be written out of character and generally requires more effort than just creating someone new to fill the "strong female character" niche. Not to mention that this particular stereotype can be even more damaging. Can you really imagine Lorna using kung-fu, spewing obscenities, and doing a bunch of other bullshit just so the writer can show that she is tough? Her vulnerability is really the most important aspect of her character, take that away and you're just left with Abigail Brand...ugh.

[blanchett]

The specifics of their on-panel histories isn't as important as the conception of the character and the role they are meant to fill in the cast. Wanda and Lorna were both created to be passive damsels in distress like all Marvel females from the 1960s, and no matter how they are developed they still don't really stack up well to more modern depictions of women even in the male-dominated superhero genre.

If you want an example just look at the Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon, where their roles were essentially reversed but it still didn't really feel too far out of character for either of them. Given that Wanda is the older sister, it actually works better to cast her as the more assertive one and Lorna as the naive ingenue. Of course even Wanda was just there to be a pretty damsel too, I believe in the Mojo episode he even called her out on it.

Of course anyone could be given more depth and personality, but that would require them to be written out of character and generally requires more effort than just creating someone new to fill the "strong female character" niche. Not to mention that this particular stereotype can be even more damaging. Can you really imagine Lorna using kung-fu, spewing obscenities, and doing a bunch of other bullshit just so the writer can show that she is tough? Her vulnerability is really the most important aspect of her character, take that away and you're just left with Abigail Brand...ugh.

That's interesting actually. I think you might be on to something but I also don't think either Wanda or Lorna are necessarily damned to be weak because they were female characters created in the 60s. I think you have to look at a character like Sue Storm to see this. She was the worst written female character in the 60s without a shadow of a doubt. Her gender was absolutely used in the worst possible way but I think there's been a reversal. The fact that she's a wife and mother, her feminity, has become used to give the character a lot of strength and not in a masculine way like a character like say Frenzy. She was a key character in civil war and the fact that she was a mother was a major influence on her politics.