Allow me to amend that to "victim of extreme power creep".
Honestly, you put Cap up as CEO of all avengers teams, and I am 100% behind that. Make him the avengers strategist, I am also down with that. But a team with him + spider-man is power duplication of the worst kind. Its the Wonderman/Thor effect on the micro level.
I'm not Captain America, but I wish I was.
Ant-Man, Captain America, Hawkeye, Swordsman, Hellcat, Black Knight, Two-Gun Kid, Beast, Black Panther, Falcon, Mockingbird, Tigra, Moon Knight, D-Man, Triathalong, etc.
Regardless of whether or not he fits, it's not because he lacks the power to.
The "street level" argument never makes much sense to me. He's not limited by his powers. He's limited by his resources. He doesn't have the same benefits as someone like Tony Stark who has the resources to make himself a hero that can travel all over the world. And don't even try to pretend that if heroes like Hawkeye or the Black Widow- if they left the Avengers- would even be prepared to dealing with the same level of threats they dealt with as a team. Hawkeye's not going to be tangling with Kang when he leaves. He's more likely to take on guys like Crossfire or Trickshot. More "street level" thugs, if you would.
Spidey, on the other had, HAS fought guys out of his wheelhouse. He's battled Dr. Hyde, Dr. Doom, the Juggernaut, been to outer space, met the Stranger, fought against Kang and Zarko the Tomorrow Man, and more. And that's not even considering the fact that most of his enemies are some of the strongest and most versatile villains of the Marvel U., who have also gone up against guys like Thor and the Hulk and proved a challenge in and of themselves. And these are guys Spidey tangles with on a regular basis.
So, sorry, no. He's not "street level." He's never been "street level." That's just a talking point people throw around when they have nothing else to bring up.
I guess this point is best illustrated by Tony and Carols avengers, when carol asked "Why not just go with all class 10s". Peter Parker is not a class 10, but neither is Captain America. Speaking to your point, I think it says a lot that Cap (who has a partial dupe of spideys power set and a fancy shield) is considered world class and spidey is considered "middle of the road".
I don't think that Spidey and Cap's powersets are "dupes." If anything, I've always thought that Spidey was stronger than Cap. At least, that's how it's been presented. Cap is the epitome of physical perfection, but nothing superhuman. Spidey has legitimate super strength. That doesn't mean I think that Cap is "lesser" than Spider-Man. Just that they are on different levels in terms of ability. Spidey "strength" is far more difficult to convey than other more common abilities. Meanwhile, a character's "strength level" can fluctuate wildly as long as it isn't absurd. As long as Cap isn't throwing tanks around with a single punch, his strength level can vary in depiction. It's this reason that I think the characters are often viewed on the same "level" (sometimes with Spidey slightly lower) when actually they are quite different power wise.I guess this point is best illustrated by Tony and Carols avengers, when carol asked "Why not just go with all class 10s". Peter Parker is not a class 10, but neither is Captain America. Speaking to your point, I think it says a lot that Cap (who has a partial dupe of spideys power set and a fancy shield) is considered world class and spidey is considered "middle of the road".
I'm not Captain America, but I wish I was.
Spiderman has all of his attributes augmented (like cap), except they are all augmented at a much higher level. Hence, power duplication.
That Said, there are two things cap has aon spider-man: leadership ability and fighting talent. Unfortunately, being a better fighter doesn't help against a guy with precog and high-level superhuman agility. on the other hand, spidey has like -500 leadership ability. Even folks who like hime have trouble listening to him.
He's not a natural leader, and likely doesn't want to be one. But I do think the people that REALLY know him, DO listen to him (event though they may pretend that they're not) because they know that he's both a very experienced hero and a good person. If Steve's not around, Pete's your moral compass.
It's the people that don't know him well that might chalk him off as comic relief.
HOWEVER, I feel that given spidey's history in the Marvel U. to this point, he should at least not be considered an "outlaw" by the established heroes like the Avengers. In addition, the Avengers have had controversial members before who weren't beloved by the public, like Namor. Plus, I think it has been shown that a character can be part of a team, and still be a loner. Just look at Wolverine for instance- a major member of the X-Men, but he never lost his "loner" status. Finally, I feel that much has been shown with Spidey's tenure with the Avengers that just being on the team doesn't make him a more popular hero. After the New Avengers first press conference where Spidey is brought out with the rest of the team, he is lambasted by the Daily Bugle for his spot on the team. Bendis showed that Spidey never lost his neurotic nature, depicting a scene where Spidey admits to Jessica Jones that he doesn't think that Cage likes him, despite the two of them hanging out a lot and having a good time. In addition to that, there was the fact that Bendis had the Avengers on the outs with the law for a good long time and not exactly the beloved public figures of the past. In fact, if anyone is guilty of making Spidey more "acceptable" it's Dan Slott and his tenure on AMS, which has had Spidey being publically backed by Steve Rogers/ Captain America and becoming a global hero fighting against Doc Ock. Spidey's tenure with the Avengers largely showed how someone like him COULD work with a big name team.
And that's how I can disagree.
One point I don't think I have seen brought up yet is that the reason why Spider-Man doesn't really belong on the Avengers is because, from a storytelling standpoint, he doesn't actually need them. Just look how his comic book has been set-up: His life out of costume is just as busy and hectic as it is in costume, in that he has to still pay his bills, go to work and find a date, all while trying to keep his double-identity from get in the way and messing things up. He has a rogues gallery second only to Batman's and, more importantly, his supporting cast is one of THE best collection of characters in comics, with their own in-depth personalities and back-stories. This allows for him to not only have interesting and exciting one-on-one or one-on-many battles as a superhero, but also to have compelling side-stories outside of costume, especially ones that revolve around a supporting cast member. Stick him on a team and he becomes just another member of the group.
Spider-Man, it's safe to say, is Marvel's most iconic and recognizable superhero, and that making him an Avenger was very likely done in order to prop the Avengers up. That's because--and I know I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for this--even though the Avengers are comprised of some great and compelling characters, let's face it: many of them are second-stringers who can barely maintain their own monthly comic book series, or who can't even get their own series no matter how hard Marvel tries. Even the bigger heroes like Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor who have continually great comics with great stories, it's when they were on the Avengers that they truly shined because of their differing, often times clashing, personalities and backgrounds. They, as with the rest of the lesser known heroes on the Avengers, work better together as part of shared universe rather than off in their own little corner. Spider-Man on the roster is not only unnecessary but a distraction, taking time away from the other members who deserve more of the focus.
Last edited by stillanerd; 05-08-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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