CBR: Cup O' Joe - Jul 1, 2011

[ian33407]

despite the fact that in interviews like this, they talk about how that is not how they do comic books.

well, I'll wait til the CAPTAIN ULTRA' creative-meeting season..

More seriously, sometimes Tom says a book is launched because someone came with a good pitch, and sometimes this is Joe Q saying :

"Brian! You. Alex Maleev. Moonknight".

So you never know.

But I'm going too speculative for the few I'm concerned.

[britishmixedwhiskey]

At least he actually Mentioned Blue Marvel and Nova .

I like a lot of the characters Marvel have been pushing (Cyclops and Cap the big exceptions) and i dont have a problem with any of that, but if the readership isnt given enough oppourtunitys to see other characters take the lead or do more , then how can anyone be sure that it's the readers fault that certain B level characters arent heard of more .

As oppose to the editors themselves already having predetermined who their favourites are and then they put them on us and say "we are giving the fans what they want" or however you want to phrase it.

If that doesnt make sense to some people then sorry but it came out how i meant it . And yes i read the whole thing and i appreciate Tom's views on the subject i just think some of the reasoning of all creators on why character A is bigger then character B is flawed. I digress . Another good Cup of Joe ....even though Joe doesnt really do them anymore so they should really change title . I dont count the occasional video ones either . Make Mine Marvel . x

[jackolover]

At the time, it hadn't been so developped in the comics but it was known that Bruce had an abusive father. Lee setted-up it wonderfully (in a flashback) and transcended it with the final confrontation.The fact Nick Nolte ended as a living electric current is a proper master-strike, rendering Bruce and his father almost mythological -by comparing them to Zeus and Hercules, but in a very disturbing and altered way (almost degenerated), this is just brilliant..

If studios had allowed Lee to direct a second opus, I'm almost pretty sure he'll have done something with the Pantheon, from PAD' run.

Interesting take on the connection between the Banners and the Olympians.

I would definitely have had Del Toro Direct a Spider-Man movie of the kidnapping of Aunt May by the Goblin and have her story as flashbacks, much like Kill Bill, only spidery. Del Toro's Spider Boy in Sin City was a wonderfully awful Spider-Man reversion, so doing the real thing would have been interesting.

[Brian from Canada]

If that doesnt make sense to some people then sorry but it came out how i meant it . And yes i read the whole thing and i appreciate Tom's views on the subject i just think some of the reasoning of all creators on why character A is bigger then character B is flawed.

I think everyone has found the logic flawed.

To me, Marvel appears to be trying to do what it did in the late 70s/early 80s: battle the dropping numbers by retrenching around the core franchises and make sure they are stable before launching any books with clearly less popular characters — with the one difference being that FILM is defining who the core franchise characters are rather than, say, toy lines or history.

And that's a good thing.

But at the same time, there's clearly an audience hungering for certain characters that are missing from that roster that would work well inside the core, and that's being patronized by editors. It was an amazing run for its time? Seriously?? How about checking out to see why the book suddenly tanked — because my guess is that it was a creative team or an editorial decision that drove it off the rails.

A CBR poll as to what Marvel's 52 would be proves that the audience is there — or at least aware — for certain other books that need to be part of the core. At the same time, I think the poll also showed that Marvel's desire to cash in on certain franchises has also hurt them a bit; "Schism" is the perfect opportunity to trim down the core X-books, not increase them.

As for the pitching, Tom has yet to acknowledge that many times the pitch is good for one arc, maybe two, and then the character becomes a bit bland. There has to be enough there to keep going and —Spamaside for Moon Knight (which is a Joe Q. and Bendis fascination) — that's why the core are surviving: they have had enough from the beginning to make them stand out, as opposed to B-levels getting their own titles before they're defined within a team.

And if you don't know who I'm talking about, check out Daken: poor man's Wolverine for an event that somehow has his own book… how does Daken stand out enough to make him easily discernible in a comic store?

[Brian from Canada]

Just FYI, BfC, Fox purchased the film rights to X-men in 1994. Unsure of the market for the movie, they waited until Blade's success to move forward. While it doesn't change your argument, it is more factually accurate.

The market for that movie started with TV. Fox tried a live action Generation X telefilm as a back pilot but it failed. They needed to find another angle.

Then came the financial problems that had Fox stepping away from Marvel for a while. There was talk of burning off episodes of the animated series in the summer of 1997 (as well as Nick Fury, which got aired then), so there was some trepidation. 1998 was not a good animated season for Fox.

Marvel was the one excited by Blade. Coming off of Men In Black as well (which was a successful cartoon to boot), Avi Arad had the ammunition to tell Fox that The X-Men was possible again. And Fox, looking back on the decade, may have been enticed by that too.

[ian33407]

Interesting take on the connection between the Banners and the Olympians.

I would definitely have had Del Toro Direct a Spider-Man movie of the kidnapping of Aunt May by the Goblin and have her story as flashbacks, much like Kill Bill, only spidery. Del Toro's Spider Boy in Sin City was a wonderfully awful Spider-Man reversion, so doing the real thing would have been interesting.

I'll take the "flash-back" idea for very risky for a character like SPIDER MAN, I guess it could work more for a PUNISHER story, or maybe IRON FIST, well something related to an origin plot somehow. For a such narrative take-on, you should have a franchise very well on rails already, but it can work..and that could be refreshing for sure. Del Toro doing it, okay, some one else like any yes-man, dunno..

[britishmixedwhiskey]

And if you don't know who I'm talking about, check out Daken: poor man's Wolverine for an event that somehow has his own book… how does Daken stand out enough to make him easily discernible in a comic store?

Pretty much spot on there to be honest. Daken is no more accessable for new fans then Captain Britain or Nova or Blue Marvel or whoever , he just so happens to be who the editor's like the most at the moment .

Alas i dont really know what we can do as consumers to persuade the higher up's to give other characters a chance to shine apart from like you said Poll's. Which im sure Tom will say is the work of the "vocal comic minority" or some such .

[ian33407]

Alas i dont really know what we can do as consumers to persuade the higher up's to give other characters a chance to shine apart from like you said Poll's.

as Marvel usually used to do : by making B-Listers shine as supporting cast or guests (H4H allows to do that, but I was thinking to good old schools cameos also)..and by launching solo titles that are staying true to the appeal the characters generated while supporting, except that should be even better considering he's the star of his own book..And as someone else pointed it, to not let down the character 1 or 2 story-arcs after the launching,..as possible.

Then you'll have nobody to convince, the work would speak for itself and the audience will surely notice.

[Dog]

The cover of the most recent issue...

So you can't tell that guy apart from Wolverine?

When you open it there's drug use and gay sex. That's probably enough, right?

[Colin7]

" But not every character is going to get that. I think it's more important that you do your best to stay true to the character. People have stories to tell about these guys, and once someone comes in with a good take or approach, we'll elevate them. Every character out there has fans, every character is somebody’s favorite. And all those fans wonder, "Why don't you do more with Nova? Why don't you do more with Daredevil? Why don't you do more with Doctor Strange or Iron Fist or the Blue Marvel?" And it's all the same thing. "I really like that character and want to see more." We're all for that as long as there're enough people who feel that way or who accumulate over time as we're telling these stories that will make doing projects centered on these characters fiscally viable."

Arg. And another provocation.

How do you explain then the hit Grant Morrison did with ANIMAL MAN ?
And again, the works of Moore, Gaiman and Milligan are so emblematic than even any profane can't look at any B-List characters the same.You could make a hit of MACHINE MAN tomorrow just by assigning Jeff Parker and Gabriel Hardman onto it..You could make the same for SILVER SURFER by making Mark Millar and Steve Mc Niven teaming-up again..Same for movies adaptations, with the Brubaker / Swierczynsky runs you could make of IRON FIST an instant hit, same for DOCTOR STRANGE if Andrew Leman is directing it (the problem isn't Leman being not so famous - because the guy is Charles Laughton re-incarnated, the problem is how you're ready to invest in a DOCTOR STRANGE movie-project in regards of a CAPTAIN AMERICA project)

I understand there's a time for everything and that is actually the point, the fact is that Marvel have to sell books of course (and that is leading us to a late discussion about foreigners characters) the fact is just that Marvel HAVE TO be famous for SpiderMan, X-Men, Thor, Hulk, IronMan and Captain America FIRST. So you're not wanting to fulfill all the audiences, because if you wanted to, you could. And once again, this is supposed to be the reader' fault, by misplaced nostalgia ? No Sir, maybe it's time to re-consider the way you're re-actualizing characters. And DC is just about to show you a little how to.

So, you think Marvel does NOT want a breakout hit with a currently B-list character? I think you're wrong there. And while Brubaker/Fraction/Swierczynsky IRON FIST was AWESOME, it got canceled because it just didn't sell enough. It's not misplaced nostalgia that is to blame, but it is certainly the taste of the buying public that is.

[ian33407]

So, you think Marvel does NOT want a breakout hit with a currently B-list character? I think you're wrong there. And while Brubaker/Fraction/Swierczynsky IRON FIST was AWESOME, it got canceled because it just didn't sell enough. It's not misplaced nostalgia that is to blame, but it is certainly the taste of the buying public that is.

I agree, but not with ANY B-List characters, which lead us to the topic of foreign characters about ALPHA FLIGHT, WINTER GUARD, or some others who seemed doomed to Limbo like SHANG-SHI, CLOAK and DAGGER, DEATHLOK or THE DEFENDERS..

I guess sometimes the launching is falling down regarding the Zeitgeist (but really, OMEGA FLIGHT by Avon Oeming and Kolins wasn't a fake try, to me at last, there's a lot of interesting stuff I wished to see like a rescue-team for Beta Ray Bill right after the end of the first mini, but I disgress..) but also sometimes this is the approach who is just wrong (see post 66 up above, and pardon the self-referencing)...

Most of the mistake I see is because a character had a succesful cameo in any event, that lead to a solo title, and editors are choosing the reader-friendly angle instead of thinking about what leads to the need of a solo title from a certain audience. This is this particular audience who come first, because they liked the cameo. The others are just giving a try, because of what they heard, or read about..

Anyway I often felt the reader-friendly angle disastrous, as a character who federate an audience for certains reasons, suddenly become "a Marvel hero like any other" right down the first issue.

Sometimes a new title is also launched too soon, as if a nice cameo was enough...Sometimes the readers have just to be acclimated a little to the characters, see MACHINE MAN, or SHROUD and PALADIN..

[Congo Jack]

I think at this point, everybody in the world has come in to pitch that series. Even before that there was talk of doing a sequel to "Magneto: Testament" that would have essentially been exactly that. And we may still get around to doing that project at some point. Right this moment, Greg Pak is in the midst of doing "Red Skull," which is the sort of counterpoint to "Magneto: Testament," and I think that asking him to do another deeply researched, historically accurate book looking in depth at that dark period and those dark people would put him in the looney bin. That is some serious stuff to have to immerse yourself into to write a comic book. But it's entirely likely we'll see that at some point. The Fassbender material in "X-Men: First Class" was great. Everybody came out of that movie saying "Wow! We want to see that movie. We want to see that guy running around Europe and hunting down old Nazis and magnetically making knives fly at them!"

If Greg Pak is too involved with other projects to do a Magneto going Nazi-hunting book then Marvel should assign another writer to it. I really want to see more of that pre-meeting-Xavier Erik Lehnsherr. Mark Sable and Cameron Stewart would be my choice for such a project.

[ian33407]

If Greg Pak is too involved with other projects to do a Magneto going Nazi-hunting book then Marvel should assign another writer to it. I really want to see more of that pre-meeting-Xavier Erik Lehnsherr. Mark Sable and Cameron Stewart would be my choice for such a project.

a, me too. Though I'm also interested by Charles' youth, and as there is an up-coming AVENGERS 1959, I'll be very interested by adventures by the adventures of the first mutants S.H.I.E.L.D' Department...

(yes, by John Paul Leon or Gabriel Hardman, if you ask me, and written by PAD, FVL or Jeff Parker)

[Brian from Canada]

I agree, but not with ANY B-List characters, which lead us to the topic of foreign characters about ALPHA FLIGHT, WINTER GUARD, or some others who seemed doomed to Limbo like SHANG-SHI, CLOAK and DAGGER, DEATHLOK or THE DEFENDERS..

The interesting thing about a lot of those books you mention is their start. Particularly two:

ALPHA FLIGHT's new book points out how they launched from Uncanny X-Men by their popular artist John Byrne, but what it forgets to mention is how quickly Byrne used those cameos to define each member of the team, their organization, and what made them stand out: they were a team answerable to the government of their nation, which Marvel didn't have. And the big memory about Alpha Flight is the first year which followed and built on that to give solid relationships to define the entire core team.

THE DEFENDERS was an assembly of non-team heroes — much like Marvel Knights would be decades later — but unlike their later apers, The Defenders has a core concept about it: characters who don't want to be there forced to be there. And then, just like The Avengers, it allowed the B-listers to become the core of the book and stay that way.

And by staying that way, I mean that — no matter how popular Sasquatch, Puck or Valkyrie got to be — there was no recognition that those characters should get their own book. At most, they got a mini-series (see Northstar), or a sub-plot in the main book. That was enough, and it made the Marvel Universe much easier to negotiate because those that starred in their own books out of teams had to be all the more extraordinary.

Or threaten the book, as Cable did with X-Force. Seriously: Cable had so much back story to get through that it would have overwhelmed X-Force. And once he became a regular X-Man, the book wanders.

I wish Marvel — and particularly editors like Tom and Joe Q. — would realize this from their internal conferences, or just get fans who post regularly to talk to them about it. Punisher was a B-villain who got enough exposure to suggest a mini which gave enough material to keep going; Deathlok had the same and it didn't work as well beyond the first story.

I guess sometimes the launching is falling down regarding the Zeitgeist (but really, OMEGA FLIGHT by Avon Oeming and Kolins wasn't a fake try, to me at last, there's a lot of interesting stuff I wished to see like a rescue-team for Beta Ray Bill right after the end of the first mini, but I disgress..) but also sometimes this is the approach who is just wrong (see post 66 up above, and pardon the self-referencing)...

I agree with you on Omega Flight. My biggest concern, though, is that Marvel sloughed it off to Marvel Comics Presents without realizing why the first volume succeeded: MCP volume one used star characters to anchor the lead story, and Omega Flight was not enough of a star at the time to keep it going.

Go back to MCP vol. 1 and you'll see what I mean: first story was usually belonging to an active member of The X-Men (Wolverine, Cyclops, Colossus). By the end of the series, one side was X-Man, the other Midnight Sons, and the middle was where the B-listers got to develop themselves more.

(And, on a side note: I love MCP vol. 1 just for that reason! One book with regular mini-series broken up into it rather than having mini after mini after mini made those individual mini-series all the more worthwhile because they passed the initial test.)

Most of the mistake I see is because a character had a succesful cameo in any event, that lead to a solo title, editors are choosing the reader-friendly angle instead of thinking about what leads to the need of a solo title from a certain audience. This is this particular audience who come first, because they liked the cameo. The others are just giving a try, because of what they heard, or read about..

Disagree. You're right about the cameo in event leading to a solo title, but my feeling is that they get the title because the writer is interested in the character at the moment without developing much of a plan into the future. Where does X go after Y happens? Z?

Marvel tried this in 97 with the post-Onslaught books: Elektra, Quicksilver, etc. were still around so got titles, but only Deadpool and Thunderbolts had enough groundwork to get a decent story going by the end of the year. (Alpha Flight did too but that book was just baaaad.)

Then they tried the digests. And the X-books. Sentinel? Emma Frost? Nightcrawler? Human Torch? The only books that had enough groundwork to keep developing further were Runaways and Mary Jane — both of which had a new angle, and an open path to develop stories further. (Emma Frost had more, but it turned out to be three parts of the same story in the end.)

Sometimes a new title is also launched too soon, as if a nice cameo was enough...Sometimes the readers have just to be acclimated a little to the characters, see MACHINE MAN, or SHROUD and PALADIN..

I remember the Machine Man series in the 90s stemming out of X-Men: we got Deathlok, Douglock is interesting… who else do we have? Machine Man? Get him his own series!

And that underlines your point.

I'm reading all the Marvel books sequentially that I can (thank you, Internet) and what amazes me most is that today's Marvel doesn't look back and take a look at how the company was organized pre-franchising.

In other words, books in the 70s and 80s when Marvel was going all out needed to have separate identities so that the characters weren't tripping over each other — and even when the books split, it was done with clear delineation. I know what the difference between Avengers and Avengers West Coast is, just as I get Iron Man, Thor, Captain America and Incredible Hulk are separate titles because they're the ones off on other missions while the rest of The Avengers work without them… or there will be reference points as to where they are/have just been.

Nowadays, we just don't have that. We just have Marvel telling us (a) those characters who were so different won't sell because they can't be launched from inside the other books, and (b) any new characters which are remotely interesting like Blue Marvel just don't have the angle yet to be launched from the others.

[Brian from Canada]

Pretty much spot on there to be honest. Daken is no more accessable for new fans then Captain Britain or Nova or Blue Marvel or whoever , he just so happens to be who the editor's like the most at the moment.

Disagree slightly with Captain Britain. For one thing, the name alone identifies him as Britain's top hero. For another, Captain Britain was created for British audiences long before he showed up in American comics (Black Knight UK stories is where he started). And, third, Captain Britain has always been teamed up with someone else who can point out the relevant parts of how this connects to the obviously-not-USA hero and scenario.