11/12 Football Thread

[Aubergine~!]

I assume Mob means that Rooney's never done it at an international tournament, where the proper greats have. If he only misses a couple of games then he can still make a mark - Andrey Arshavin managed to light up the last Euros even after a suspension.

Ah, well fair enough.

Last I heard Xabi Alonso and Sergio Ramos picked up knocks against the Czechs. But even Spain's reserve side are good enough to pump us, so regardless of who plays we're in for a hard game.

Oh yeah, Spain is still Spain, but at least you've a chance. Also, I think you get through anyway if Lithuania upset the Czechs?

[king mob]

Well if Lithuania do us a turn on Tuesday we might only have to beat Liechtenstein tonight. Sounds like the perfect set-up for another glorious failure then.

I'll be happy with two draws on Tuesday but we all know we'll do something stupid or the ref will give a free kick to Spain for no reason in the last minutes to allow them to win.

[king mob]

2 to 3 players from each club is a clique is it?

Technically yes it is, and it's not the first time it's happened. Bobby Robson had to stamp out club cliques in the 1990 World Cup, and Keegan, Eriksson and McClaren's times were riddled with on and off pitch cliques.

Players have mentioned these several times including Scholes in a recent interview and it's a problem for the English, and I honestly don't know how they can sort it out unless they stop picking Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool players.

[king mob]

I'd be surprised if there weren't club-related "cliques" on international breaks. They know each other better, presumably.

Anyway, Scotland completed the first half of 2011's glorious failure. It might not be pretty - second half especially - but I'll take that if it means we get to play Spain with something at stake. Fingers and toes crossed on Tuesday.

It started well for us then it quickly became a dreadful, dreadful game but we ground out a result even though it should have been much more. As said, I'll be happy with two draws which won't happen.

[king mob]

I assume Mob means that Rooney's never done it at an international tournament, where the proper greats have. If he only misses a couple of games then he can still make a mark - Andrey Arshavin managed to light up the last Euros even after a suspension.

Yep, Rooney's never had a great international tournament and if he really wants to live up to that 'world class' tag round his neck he needs to knock a tournament dead but he's not going to do that if he let's his country down by getting suspended for the opening matches.

[shamone]

I assume Mob means that Rooney's never done it at an international tournament, where the proper greats have. If he only misses a couple of games then he can still make a mark - Andrey Arshavin managed to light up the last Euros even after a suspension.

Last I heard Xabi Alonso and Sergio Ramos picked up knocks against the Czechs. But even Spain's reserve side are good enough to pump us, so regardless of who plays we're in for a hard game.

in fairness messi has never done it an international tournament, nor cron for that matter.

Champions league is now the barometer of greatness not international tournaments

[king mob]

in fairness messi has never done it an international tournament, nor cron for that matter.

Champions league is now the barometer of greatness not international tournaments

Messi's won several Champion's League's and is the best player in the world but he still needs to cut it in international football as that's still the global benchmark whether fans of the modern game like it or not.


Being a great international player takes skill, and arguably lot's more skills and adaptability than in you're in a club side where you can afford to buy quality players. So to take Messi as an example he's won everything he can as a club player but he's had poor to average tournaments for a variety of reasons. He's still the best in the world but he's got this one thing to prove not only to himself but the people of Argentina who he represents.

Essentially the joy of international football is money isn't part of the equation (unless you're Qatar) and you have to play with players who may not be as good as what you're used to, or indeed, play with better players when you're used to being the top player at your club. So international football is different but it means more to more people than Champion's League's or Premier League's because of it's more egalitarian nature.

[shamone]

Messi's won several Champion's League's and is the best player in the world but he still needs to cut it in international football as that's still the global benchmark whether fans of the modern game like it or not.


Being a great international player takes skill, and arguably lot's more skills and adaptability than in you're in a club side where you can afford to buy quality players. So to take Messi as an example he's won everything he can as a club player but he's had poor to average tournaments for a variety of reasons. He's still the best in the world but he's got this one thing to prove not only to himself but the people of Argentina who he represents.

Essentially the joy of international football is money isn't part of the equation (unless you're Qatar) and you have to play with players who may not be as good as what you're used to, or indeed, play with better players when you're used to being the top player at your club. So international football is different but it means more to more people than Champion's League's or Premier League's because of it's more egalitarian nature.

thats all true. What im saying is that international football was once the apex of football. It isnt anymore. Doing well at w.c is one thing, doing it year in, year out is more valid.

Also with globalisation we see the best players in the world. Pele for example, his domestic career is stats to most europeans. Would have only see him play in world cups on tv. Nowadays we can see there players day in, day out and judge their quality.

[king mob]

thats all true. What im saying is that international football was once the apex of football. It isnt anymore. Doing well at w.c is one thing, doing it year in, year out is more valid.

Also with globalisation we see the best players in the world. Pele for example, his domestic career is stats to most europeans. Would have only see him play in world cups on tv. Nowadays we can see there players day in, day out and judge their quality.

Which means nothing if you're from say Jamaica and you see your nation qualify. That means more than jumping on the glory train and cheering on (insert big team you've supported for five years here).

What I'm saying is international football may not have the skill of the Champion's League, but it has the joys and the thrills lost from the old European Cup. It has skills you won't get in the Champion's League and it has an equality rarely found in top flight football now money rules the game.

[shamone]

Which means nothing if you're from say Jamaica and you see your nation qualify. That means more than jumping on the glory train and cheering on (insert big team you've supported for five years here).

What I'm saying is international football may not have the skill of the Champion's League, but it has the joys and the thrills lost from the old European Cup. It has skills you won't get in the Champion's League and it has an equality rarely found in top flight football now money rules the game.

again i agree, but it still doesnt act as the barometer for measuring what a world class player is anymore.

[king mob]

again i agree, but it still doesnt act as the barometer for measuring what a world class player is anymore.

It does though. Look at the conversation surrounding Messi after last year's World Cup and the conversation round Rooney right now.

[shamone]

It does though. Look at the conversation surrounding Messi after last year's World Cup and the conversation round Rooney right now.

in your mind perhaps. With the declining standards in international football it cant be used to be compared with previous generations.

Klose has a great period every four years. He isnt near world class

[Omega Alpha]

A player can still be world class and a top one without a great World Cup, but the WC will always the Rosebud, the missing piece of all of it.
No one says "you know, Pelé and Maradona were great, but...they had no Champions Legues", but in the future, if Messi doesn't have "his" World Cup, he'll be remembered as "that guy that was great in spite of never having a great World Cup" or even say he never became the greatest ever because of his failure at WCs.

[shamone]

A player can still be world class and a top one without a great World Cup, but the WC will always the Rosebud, the missing piece of all of it.
No one says "you know, Pelé and Maradona were great, but...they had no Champions Legues", but in the future, if Messi doesn't have "his" World Cup, he'll be remembered as "that guy that was great in spite of never having a great World Cup" or even say he never became the greatest ever because of his failure at WCs.

you can still compare pele and messi and so on, as pointless an exercise as it is. Lacking a world cup win doesnt mean messi cant be considered world class, or spoken in same breath as pele or maradona.

Just as the game has changed so much over time, the importance of tournaments has. Players can only truly be considered the best of their generation

[Alan Lynch]

Oh yeah, Spain is still Spain, but at least you've a chance. Also, I think you get through anyway if Lithuania upset the Czechs?

Yeah, we're a point ahead and it needs to stay that way because of our head-to-head record. And Lithuania beat the Czechs in Prague so we haven't written a shock off completely.

It started well for us then it quickly became a dreadful, dreadful game but we ground out a result even though it should have been much more. As said, I'll be happy with two draws which won't happen.

It's just set up perfectly to disappoint us isn't it? At least some fans have got a week in Alicante out of it all.

A player can still be world class and a top one without a great World Cup, but the WC will always the Rosebud, the missing piece of all of it.
No one says "you know, Pelé and Maradona were great, but...they had no Champions Legues", but in the future, if Messi doesn't have "his" World Cup, he'll be remembered as "that guy that was great in spite of never having a great World Cup" or even say he never became the greatest ever because of his failure at WCs.

Agree completely. Nobody will argue that Messi wasn't a brilliant player, but without some footage of him tearing teams up for his country it'll always have that "but..." attached.

And in Messi's defence, I thought he was excellent at the last World Cup. The rest of his team were pretty crap, and he didn't score, but he set up almost everything good that Argentina did. People just fixated on his lack of goals.