Lawful Evil vs Chaotic Evil

[Omegalith]

So then please break down the difference between Lawful and Chaotic Neutral. I've heard that before and i would guess that that would be the simplest way to look at a Lawful person versus a Chaotic Person and then see how they fair if they have evil intent or good intent. That is what we mean when we say Good and Evil right? The intent is to harm?

Good: Helps others at cost to self.

Evil: Harms others for own benefit.

Lawful: Acts according to highly specific principles and in an organized manner.

Chaotic: Acts according to whim, highly concerned with the idea of personal freedoms (Whether merely his own personal freedoms or everybodys would depend on where he is on the good/evil scale)

[mclure]

Well there was a book on Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn, about Baal and some other two of his deity colleagues that made a pact to rule over Jergal's power... It's merely lore for the player really, with no other useful purpose. Ball seens to be Lawful Evil, per see, they competed on a bowling into the gray waste, and he gets lawful evil, the other got chaotic evil, and their motivations were that the chaotic evil was the one that choose to spread hatred, destruction, and whim, personifying the chaotic evil extreme of, well evil. SO, the first place, for spreading evil, went to Chaotic Evil alignment, because of acting on whims and such, and being evil, could pretty much do anything it wanted. Baal, being last place got lawful evil, but explained to his brothers how things end up: "To you, lawful evil, remember that eventually you'll die, and your possessions, will all pass out and eventually the neutral evil will own them. To you, chaotic evil, I, Baal, can simply cut your supply of food, disease your people, or something like that, and make you stop fighting, for eventually, they all end up dead, either by battling or old-age perishing there." Just some story thingy to put a light on this thread. In fact, here it is, without my speculations:

"History of the Dead Three: 'KNUCKLEBONES, SKULL BOWLING, AND THE EMPTY THRONE' (BOOK36)

In ages past there was but one god of strife, death, and the dead, and he was known as Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything. Jergal fomented and fed on the discord among mortals and powers alike. When beings slew each other in their quest for power or in their hatred, he welcomed them into his shadowy kingdom of eternal gloom. As all things died, everything came to him eventually, and over time he built his power into a kingdom unchallenged by any other god. Eventually, however, he grew tired of his duties for he knew them too well. Without challenge there is nothing, and in nothingness there is only gloom. In such a state, the difference between absolute power and absolute powerlessness is undetectable.

During this dark era, there arose three powerful mortals - Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul - who lusted after the power Jergal wielded. The trio forged an unholy pact, agreeing that they would dare to seek such ultimate power or die in the attempt. Over the length and breadth of the Realms they strode, seeking powerful magic and spells and defying death at every turn. No matter what monster they confronted or what spells they braved, the three mortals emerged unscathed at every turn. Eventually the trio destroyed one of the Seven Lost Gods, and they each seized a portion of his divine essence for themselves.

The trio then journeyed into the Gray Waste and sought out the Castle of Bone. Through armies of skeletons, legions of zombies, hordes of noncorporeal undead, and a gauntlet of liches they battled. Eventually they reached the object of their lifelong quest - the Bone Throne.

"I claim this throne of evil," shouted Bane the tyrant. "I'll destroy you before you can raise a finger," threatened Bhaal the assassin. "And I shall imprison your essence for eternity," promised Myrkul the necromancer.

Jergal arose from his throne with a weary expression and said, "The Throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish - I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the position." Before the stunned trio could react, the Lord of the Dead continued: "Who among you shall rule?"

The trio immediately fell to fighting amongst themselves while Jergal looked on with indifference. When eventually it appeared that either they would all die of exhaustion or battle on for an eternity, the Lord of the End of Everything intervened. "After all you have sacrificed, would you come away with nothing? Why don't you divide the portfolios of the office and engage in a game of skill for them?" asked Jergal.

Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul considered the god's offer and agreed. Jergal took the heads of his three most powerful liches and gave them to the trio that they would compete by bowling the skulls. Each mortal rolled a skull across the Gray Waste, having agreed that the winner would be he who bowled the farthest.

Malar the Beastlord arrived to visit Jergal at this moment. After quickly ascertaining that the winner of the contest would get all of Jergal's power, he chased off after the three skulls to make sure that the contest would be halted until he had a chance to participate for part of the prize. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul again fell to fighting as it was obvious their sport was ruined, and again Jergal intervened. "Why don't you allow Lady Luck to decide so you don't have to share with the Beast?"

The trio agreed, and Jergal broke off his skeletal finger bones and gave them to the players. When Malar returned from chasing the skulls, he found that the trio had just finished a game of knucklebones.

Bane cried out triumphantly, "As winner, I choose to rule for all eternity as the ultimate tyrant. I can induce hatred and strife at my whim, and all will bow down before me while in my kingdom." (Chaotic evil)

Myrkul, who had won second place, declared, "But I choose the dead, and by doing so I truly win, because all you are lord over, Bane, will eventually be mine. All things must die - even gods." (Neutral evil)

Bhaal, who finished third, demurred, "I choose death, and it is by my hand that all that you rule Lord Bane will eventually pass to Lord Myrkul. Both of you must pay honor to me and obey my wishes, since I can destroy your kingdom, Bane, by murdering your subjects, and I can starve your kingdom, Myrkul, by staying my hand." (Lawful evil)

Malar growled in frustration, but could do nothing, and yet again only the beasts were left for him.

And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered."

Bane: Chaotic Evil
Myrkul: Neutral evil
Bhaal: Lawful evil

[nervmeister]

...Kind of. He's certainly a mass of chaos, but as a near-mindless being he doesn't really have the free will to qualify for an evil alignment.

The manifestation of Azathoth's soul (Nyarlathotep) does however.

[Omegalith]

The manifestation of Azathoth's soul (Nyarlathotep) does however.

I've also heard other theories as to what he is, such as enacting the will of the Outer Gods as a collective, or of managing their affairs in their absence. It's not really particularly clear what he is, other than that he's a lot more active than the others and is generally seen screwing around with people for fun rather than ignoring them.

[Rhyvurg]

I'd say chaos. With the Chaos Gods involved (and honestly Nurgle is a joke, half the chaos forces are immune to disease anyway), the demon princes, Klarion the Witch Boy, and several other gods, chaos has the sheer numbers and crazy powers to win. Law is no slouch, but in every fictional setting I've seen their forces are ultimately finite. With chaos able to work together they'd be overrun.

[Omegalith]

(and honestly Nurgle is a joke, half the chaos forces are immune to disease anyway)

Takes away his subtle options, but to be fair to him it does leave a very large army of cultists, marines and demons who're pretty tough and durable.

I reckon he's about as useful as Slaanesh is in this context, honestly. Most of the more important Law guys aren't gonna roll over for a lavender lass with three bras and a lobster claw.

[Hiromi]

Nurgle's thing isn't just disease, its decay, it goes WAY beyond disease.

[Omegalith]

Nurgle's thing isn't just disease, its decay, it goes WAY beyond disease.

More stagnation really, in the long run. He doesn't just want to rot everything away to nothing, rather he mars then preserves things.