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  1. #9466
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    How many people would buy a second 16oz though? You have to pay more and you've already had a pretty large drink - how many people will be that thirsty?[/QUOTE] What business is that of the mayor of NYC or any govermental offiical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Clarkie View Post
    I personally don't understand most objections to a social support network. We've built shared languages, trade, communities, societies, armies, nations. And NOW we have to all stand on our own? It doesn't make any sense.
    A spocial support network is one thing< but What bloomberg and folks like him are implementing is a social CONTROL network, substituting government judgement for individual judgement.

    If someone wants to sell me a legal product and I want to buy that product, the serving size is simply none of the governments business.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  2. #9467
    Wait...I know you. Captain Clarkie's Avatar
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    I can understand an objection to control, but then the biggest form of control is wealth distribution over "Value" distribution (trite, I know), it mainly seems to me that when language such as "cutting red tape", "not stifling enterprise" etc is used, it actually seems to involve "Large amounts of unequally distributed wealth denying freedom". And Freedom is the important word. When wealth buys laws, then the law itself is sullied. Ditto legislation, representation, and any other attempts at Democratic agreement that improve all fellow humans, and surely the improvement of all people is what true democracy is all about.
    'Authorities say the phony Pope can be recognized by his high-top sneakers and incredibly foul mouth.'

  3. #9468
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Clarkie View Post
    I can understand an objection to control, but then the biggest form of control is wealth distribution over "Value" distribution (trite, I know), it mainly seems to me that when language such as "cutting red tape", "not stifling enterprise" etc is used, it actually seems to involve "Large amounts of unequally distributed wealth denying freedom". And Freedom is the important word. When wealth buys laws, then the law itself is sullied. Ditto legislation, representation, and any other attempts at Democratic agreement that improve all fellow humans,
    I have no trouble with any of that, but do you recognize that sometimes too much intervention is as dangerous as too little?
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Clarkie View Post
    and surely the improvement of all people is what true democracy is all about.
    The only problem with that is when people decide what is "for your own "good on things where the decisions are rightfully private ones. I guess the Idea that individuals having a say in what they believe is in their interest is obsolete to folks like Bloomberg.

    I have no objection to government controls on wrongdoing by business or individuals, But telling me what I can eat what I can drink and how much is simply not any of their damned business.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  4. #9469
    Be Right Back... Spike-X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    I have no objection to government controls on wrongdoing by business or individuals, But telling me what I can eat what I can drink and how much is simply not any of their damned business.
    I'm inclined to agree. Why is it that whenever governments want to combat obesity, they either raise taxes on unhealthy food or try stupid shit like this, rather than looking at options for making healthy food more affordable?
    Christ, do I have to do all the thinking for the entire fucking Internet? - Michael P

  5. #9470
    Wait...I know you. Captain Clarkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    The only problem with that is when people decide what is "for your own "good on things where the decisions are rightfully private ones.
    I agree, and those private decisions and freedoms are being eroded the most by very large unelected wealth-based institutions with next to no democratic checks and balances. Elected governments must wish they had that much power.
    'Authorities say the phony Pope can be recognized by his high-top sneakers and incredibly foul mouth.'

  6. #9471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    the money has to come from somewhere....and it usually comes from the already burdened middle class

    I do ok, but I have my weeks where I have to decide between groceries or gas...I just can't get even a little ahead and now Im supposed to help support Crazy Randy who lives in a box down the street and talks to his watch?
    Generally, social networks are generally cheaper than the cost of emergency services, or managing the diseases that happen in slums, etc. Retraining, good nutrition all help to get people off of social services and those people tend to pay more into the system then they receive. As for those who never leave the system, do you really think the slums of Mexico City or Cairo is an improvement overall?

  7. #9472
    Y? Cause I Gotta! JCAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    Well, if Crazy Randy doesn't get outside support, he'll most likely die in the street.
    Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
    Etc, etc, etc.
    My mom gave my computer cancer.

  8. #9473
    Be Right Back... Spike-X's Avatar
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    The Queen's Jubilee has provided a wonderful opportunity for unemployed British people to get themselves a bit of work.

    For nothing.

    Oh, and they had to sleep under London Bridge the night before.

    God Save The Queen!
    Christ, do I have to do all the thinking for the entire fucking Internet? - Michael P

  9. #9474
    Hey, brother. Matt Algren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    the money has to come from somewhere....and it usually comes from the already burdened middle class

    I do ok, but I have my weeks where I have to decide between groceries or gas...I just can't get even a little ahead and now Im supposed to help support Crazy Randy who lives in a box down the street and talks to his watch?
    Yes. Yes, you are.

  10. #9475
    Senior Member RatFace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike-X View Post
    I'm inclined to agree. Why is it that whenever governments want to combat obesity, they either raise taxes on unhealthy food or try stupid shit like this, rather than looking at options for making healthy food more affordable?
    The problem isn't the cost of healthy foods, it's the convenience of unhealthy foods.

  11. #9476
    Junior Member orthodoxyordeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike-X View Post
    But if you are on any form of governmental aid, it's perfectly acceptable for the government to micro-manage every bite of food that goes into your mouth, because God forbid you should be able to control any aspect of your life whatsoever?
    Well, the government theoretically has more right to control what you do with its money, because it has a vested interest in making sure you stay healthy while on its dime. If you're relying on the government to provide you checks, or say food stamps, then I can understand controlling people's diets, because then the government is interested in making sure it won't have to pay for your healthcare because you're a fat lard or have a heart-attack. It's just like when your parents used to decide what you ate. You were on their dime, and they were interested in making sure you stayed healthy so they didn't have a dead kid or have to pay more money for health services etc.

    Otherwise, you should be able to eat what you damn well please. If I want to die at 40 of a massive heart-attack from stuffing my face with red meat my whole life, I should be able to.
    Last edited by orthodoxyordeath; 06-04-2012 at 09:11 PM.
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  12. #9477
    Hey, brother. Matt Algren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatFace View Post
    The problem isn't the cost of healthy foods, it's the convenience of unhealthy foods.
    A little from A, a little from B. The US government heavily subsidizes high fructose corn syrup, which is what the proposed soda ban (which will never pass) is about, but last I heard, the government doesn't offer any tax breaks at all for fresh produce meant for direct human consumption. Upending that paradigm might change things a bit.

    I saw a great 2009 documentary called Fresh a few months ago. As a grown-up farm boy, it was startling how much things have changed in American farming and American food production in the last 10-20 years, and not for the good. And that change has directly resulted in a wealth of high-fat, high-preservative, low-cost dog food sold to people, and a dearth of affordable food that is actually good for you. (It's on Netflix Streaming if anyone wants to take a look.)

  13. #9478

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    Quote Originally Posted by orthodoxyordeath View Post
    Well, the government theoretically has more right to control what you do with its money, because it has a vested interest in making sure you stay healthy while on its dime. If you're relying on the government to provide you checks, or say food stamps, then I can understand controlling people's diets, because then the government is interested in making sure it won't have to pay for your healthcare because you're a fat lard or have a heart-attack. It's just like when your parents used to decide what you ate. You were on their dime, and they were interested in making sure you stayed healthy so they didn't have a dead kid or have to pay more money for health services etc.

    Otherwise, you should be able to eat what you damn well please. If I want to die at 40 of a massive heart-attack from stuffing my face with red meat my whole life, I should be able to.
    Yeah, the problem is unfortunately you might not die - you might just end up in hospital for a month on the public dime and then on Social Security disability for another 30 years.
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  14. #9479
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Clarkie View Post
    I agree, and those private decisions and freedoms are being eroded the most by very large unelected wealth-based institutions with next to no democratic checks and balances. Elected governments must wish they had that much power.
    In some cases like in NYC, or Philadelphia it is the elected government that is doing the eroding.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  15. #9480
    Junior Member orthodoxyordeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iangould View Post
    Yeah, the problem is unfortunately you might not die - you might just end up in hospital for a month on the public dime and then on Social Security disability for another 30 years.
    Exactly. Which is why if the government wants to get rid of soda or some other "unhealthy" things for the people on governmental aid, I applaud, because we shouldn't be funding someone self-destructing. Otherwise, get the hell outta my kitchen!
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