CBR: Cup O' Joe - Jun 17, 2011

[marvell2100]

Marvel had a title for nearly every genre out there. If they continue to focus on just a few characters they cna't expand the brand. it doesn't mean that every character gets a title but we shouldn't have 2-4 characters eat up spots on multiple teams either. If it's the case that there's no need for an international team because of the Avengers, then we wouldn't need the FF, the X-Men teams or the new Alpha Flight team. It doesn't have to be a global team, just a team not based in the US alone.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Marvel had a title for nearly every genre out there. If they continue to focus on just a few characters they cna't expand the brand. it doesn't mean that every character gets a title but we shouldn't have 2-4 characters eat up spots on multiple teams either. If it's the case that there's no need for an international team because of the Avengers, then we wouldn't need the FF, the X-Men teams or the new Alpha Flight team. It doesn't have to be a global team, just a team not based in the US alone.

Agreed.

Or, if the Avengers truly IS a Global Team, then expand the membership to include heroes from more territories. 'Earth's Mightiest Heroes' should be exactly that.

And the argument that lesser known characters aren't tough enough to BE Earth's Mightiest Heroes doesn't quite stand up, either.

Look at Black Panther. He can kick all kinds of ass. One of the finest warriors on Earth. It's what defines his character.

Or Captain Britain. In Marvel's own factfiles post Heroic Age he is listed as having potentially near limitless power levels. Certainly comparable power levels to The Hulk in the self-same book of factfiles.

But instead, at least the roster of Avengers and New Avengers share cast members. Why? What point dies that really serve, when so many other great characters get left out?

MI13 did at least have a very distinct remit, which made it something which didn't exist elsewhere in the Marvel Universe. It's why I wish Marvel would give it another chance.

[marvell2100]

Agreed.

Or, if the Avengers truly IS a Global Team, then expand the membership to include heroes from more territories. 'Earth's Mightiest Heroes' should be exactly that.

And the argument that lesser known characters aren't tough enough to BE Earth's Mightiest Heroes doesn't quite stand up, either.

Look at Black Panther. He can kick all kinds of ass. One of the finest warriors on Earth. It's what defines his character.

Or Captain Britain. In Marvel's own factfiles post Heroic Age he is listed as having potentially near limitless power levels. Certainly comparable power levels to The Hulk in the self-same book of factfiles.

But instead, at least the roster of Avengers and New Avengers share cast members. Why? What point dies that really serve, when so many other great characters get left out?

MI13 did at least have a very distinct remit, which made it something which didn't exist elsewhere in the Marvel Universe. It's why I wish Marvel would give it another chance.

And that's exactly the argument to be made. The Avengers can be Earth's mightiest heroes. They just shouldn't be Earth's only superhero team.

[I_Captain Blanco]

My problem with Tom's argument about the Avengers essentially being international is that they've barely been avenging or defending areas outside of NY.

Before Fear Itself, the Academy kids also went to France via Pym's Infinite Mansion, on their way to being punked out by the Sinister Six. At the same time, the instructors were trying to mitigate a volcanic eruption in Italy.

The New Avengers also went to Japan to rescue Echo/Ronin right before Secret Invasion kicked off.

[Will.S]

The New Avengers also went to Japan to rescue Echo/Ronin right before Secret Invasion kicked off.

Yeah they did but wow that was way back.

[TinyJoseph]

I can kinda see Tom's point, but think he's a bit off because while technically the Avenges are global (and interstellar) they don't do a hell of a lot outside of the States shit, outside of NYC. I think a real focus and writer could pull off an international team. I don't care if It's Avengers International or just random nations having their own team, but there needs to be a story first , I don't care about justifying It's existence cause honestly, New Avengers isn't doing anything that the main team isn't doing even though they're supposed to be the more street level version, but I still enjoy the title.

[randomengine]

The biggest idea I got from this week's interview is that Marvel's comics are way more editorial driven than they used to be. It is easy to be more creator-driven when times are good, but editorial appears to have to take over when times are tight.

I am ok with that. I enjoy editorial-driven comics better. I feel like they have better continuity than creator-driven series.

[Joe Acro]

I would argue Slott's Mighty Avengers team was international. We had those sequences where they beboped from country to country, saving places. Heck, most of their big stories didn't take place in America at all. The first story was in Transia. The Unspoken arc was set primarily in China. The fight with Ultron took place in another dimension. (Not that that part counts as international, but it's definitely not America.)

That was part of the appeal to the Infinite Mansion for me. It could essentially open anywhere, and take the team on any adventure the writer wanted them to.

[nomadic writer]

Really, the main Avengers team should be out there handling the global threats and the New Avengers hanging around in New York tackling the local stuff. That would give each team a distinct mission statement, and allow some neglected international characters to get showcased in the Avengers book and raise their profile.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I would argue Slott's Mighty Avengers team was international. We had those sequences where they beboped from country to country, saving places. Heck, most of their big stories didn't take place in America at all. The first story was in Transia. The Unspoken arc was set primarily in China. The fight with Ultron took place in another dimension. (Not that that part counts as international, but it's definitely not America.)

That was part of the appeal to the Infinite Mansion for me. It could essentially open anywhere, and take the team on any adventure the writer wanted them to.

I totally agree. And it is why I loved Slott's run. Sadly, again, it's now in the past.

I don't think anybody would argue that even two years ago Marvel had some kind of international focus.

It's just that since The Heroic Age the whole thing has become almost exclusively stuck back in New York, and occasionally elsewhere in the US, focussing only on Movie Franchised characters.

Most frustrating.

Really, the main Avengers team should be out there handling the global threats and the New Avengers hanging around in New York tackling the local stuff. That would give each team a distinct mission statement, and allow some neglected international characters to get showcased in the Avengers book and raise their profile.

Yes. That's how it SHOULD be. Not how it is, sadly.

You know the most distinct message I get from that interview, sadly, is that the focus of the entire Marvel Universe is being held back by The Avengers - and by Marvel's inability to convincingly make The Avengers true to their mission statement, possibly because they have to compromise to selling an upcoming Avengers movie, as well as their other Marvel movies.

[marvell2100]

How does Marvel plan to appeal to readers outside the US when they only focus largely on American Heroes in American cities? With comics becoming more and more digital, the access to them world wide becomes easier. It's foolish to think that a reader from England, Australia, Kenya, Puerto Rico, South Africa, etc wouldn't be more interested in a comic if it didn't feature heroes and locales from their native land or at least a semblance thereof. I know that alot of fans outside of the US do have an interest in American heroes but how does it hurt to include heroes/teams outside of the US? I would think that you'd want to appeal to as many people as possible.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Exactly. And greatly frustrating, because until relatively recently it was not that way. Marvel still have a far greater wealth of International characters, and greater spread of Ethnically diverse properties, than DC. They have just chosen in the past few years to stop using them.

It's because those characters don't sell as much as the same four that have been proven to sell. The way the industry and economy is, it's a time of consolidation. While DC seems to be able to diversify and breathe life into their characters (look how well they've shot up Green Lantern lately and now the Flash is gaining momentum as well), Marvel just doesn't seem to have the ability currently to put the effort into pushing these cusp characters to grow these characters and diversify their line.

Also, another thing that bugged me is that they completely ignored how Moon Knight was editorially driven, as we've heard how many times that Joe Q went to different creators asking for a pitch for Moon Knight before Bendis's pitch was chosen. That certainly would have been good conversation for this "art of the pitch" article, but hey, all sorts of journalistic integrity is lost these days.

[ian33407]

And this is telling everything :

I don't think anybody would argue that even two years ago Marvel had some kind of international focus.

It's just that since The Heroic Age the whole thing has become almost exclusively stuck back in New York, and occasionally elsewhere in the US, focussing only on Movie Franchised characters.

Captain Britain, Alpha Flight and the Winter Guard are long times personal faves. If Marvel isn't against selling more books (as they say) it remained clear that secondary characters couldn't shadowing the main franchises, and Tom just repeated it : "nobody can be more patriotic than Cap" but I guess it works with "heroic" or just "interesting", and "best-selling".

Each times ongoings projects for these three were summoned by fans, you had the same kind of reactions ( Captain Britain made his way better through the MU via the X-MEN and Chris Claremont) : " the fuck we care about stories happening in Russia or Canada" "you got already AVENGERS, you got already X-MEN, aren't they good enough ?", and that's why I wondered often if publishers didn't deliberatly screwed these books and characters, to not distracting the audience about the "Big Hits" scheduled. I even wonder if it is only the editors fault, if it doesn't come from the artists too, ask Butch Guice if he's ready to give his max onto ALPHA FLIGHT who'll sell poorly (at the times, because now he could sell the book just with his name) or working onto CAPTAIN AMERICA with Ed Brubaker, wich is already instant selling assured.

Anyway, part of the appeal about these characters came from early appeareances, because of a wonderful work of characterization as supporting cast. This was at the times when some writers really thought than if you were introducing foreign characters, then they should came with other values than what the main heroes had; see the Winter Guard (aka Soviet Super-Soldiers ) in IRON MAN, they're more heroics than Stark and Jack Of Heart, they're the FF and the Avengers and the X-MEN all rolled in one !.. As for ALPHA FLIGHT, they remain strongly iconic (having been designed by Byrne) and despite poorly approaches, there are still fans who are waiting to see them becoming what they should have been.
And all in all, DC uses also his secondary characters better than Marvel, and I remain convinced the ties-in doesn't help, that if there's a story about a secondary character, then it should shine within the event.

If Marvel really want to sell these characters, why not adding them an A-List creative team ? Why these characters didn't get the same continuity and characterization exigences. With the excuse of making the book reader-friendly, they use the characters to finally make them do what all the main characters do, but poorly. I'm not talking hard-core continuity here, just the minimum wage : because continuity is at last helpful about the links between the characters.

WINTER GUARD had finally regained the perfect rooster, and ALPHA FLIGHT finally get FVL, Greg Pak and Dale Eaglesham..I hope to see them re-becoming good supporting cast or shine in their own titles if they have one, but considered with the same attention that the main franchises

(but please keep Brubaker still far from these two)

[Tracks]

people should send brevoort questions about international teams on his formspring, he answers that almost everyday.

[ian33407]

people should send brevoort questions about international teams on his formspring, he answers that almost everyday.

hey that would be interesting if all internationals heroes gets rid of their government' authority to become Global Avengers...

mm..they'll become outcasts in their own country and we'll end-up with Winter Guard protecting Canada, I don't know if readers are ready for that.

Forget what I just said.