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  1. #181
    *choke* Dan B. in the Underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie View Post
    To me, early to mid 80s Giffen is when he looked most like an individual artist albeit one who really dug Jim Starlin's space epics.
    Ah, yes -- I forgot his Starlin-clone phase.

    I'm actually sort of disappointed to see that he's back to more or less xeroxing Kirby (though in some ways it's more like he's xeroxing Tom Scioli's xeroxing of Kirby), much as I like him in that style. I have to admit I was curious about who he might decide to appropriate from next -- Frank Robbins? Graham Ingels? Charles Schulz?
    Last edited by Dan B. in the Underworld; 09-16-2011 at 06:31 AM.
    I tend to split superhero comics fans into "People who like Krypto" and "People who don't like Krypto."
    Basically, if you miss the wonder of a dog flying around in a little Superman cape, you're in the wrong hobby.

    -- Reptisaurus!

  2. #182
    Frugal fanboy Cei-U!'s Avatar
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    Scott: The only modern appearance of The King that I'm aware of was in the 1999 Star Spangled Comics one-shot that was part of the "JSA Returns" event. Also the '70s Black Magic revival remained all-reprint throughout its brief run.

    Cei-U!
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  3. #183
    Member Simon Garth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan bailey View Post
    A distinctly minority view, of course.

    (Which is perfectly OK, needless to say. I have a few hundred of 'em myself.)
    It's funny, Cockrum was the first artist I was really hooked on (bear in mind that I was experiencing Cockrum in X-Men & FOOM only a couple of years after I had been picking up early-60s reprints in the UK Marvel comics, so to see this stuff in colour was mind-blowing!), but this was fed by not seeing very much of his artwork. Prior to X-Men, I'd only seen a few spot-illos, I then followed X-men and got heartily sick of the weaknesses of his art by the end of his first run, and I've had an aversion to his art ever since - absolutely loathed his second run on X-Men, and haven't seen anything else of his that I've liked.

  4. #184
    Senior Member MDG's Avatar
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    The first Cockrum art I ever saw were some Capt Marvel Jr illustrations in a fanzine, and i loved them. And I've seen other single illustrations that I liked. But I can't think of any actual comic stores he did that I cared for. Maybe he just doesn't work well with someone else inking.
    "It's just lines on paper, folks!"

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cei-U! View Post
    Scott: The only modern appearance of The King that I'm aware of was in the 1999 Star Spangled Comics one-shot that was part of the "JSA Returns" event. Also the '70s Black Magic revival remained all-reprint throughout its brief run.

    Thanks for the info. Even though there wasn't anything particularly unique about The King, I rather enjoyed it for some reason. I think it was mostly the odd relationship he had with his supposed archenemy, The Witch; they had a certain strange chemistry in this story, in part because it felt like The King was more interested in getting one over on her than he was in actually being a hero per se.

    As an example, here's something I have to mention about this story. So, The King is on a train and he realizes that The Witch is there casing a mark for an upcoming theft. She doesn't know he's there, though, because he is a master of disguise. As he's watching, he sees a private detective approaching, whom has been hired to guard the money. His idea, of course, is to use his disguise prowess to take the guard's place so he can thwart whatever The Witch is planning. Sure, fine.

    But his method of doing this? He cold cocks the guy and then throws his unconscious body off the moving train! What the hell!!
    At last, Boy Comics finally gets its own website!

  6. #186
    world of yesterday benday-dot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDG View Post
    The first Cockrum art I ever saw were some Capt Marvel Jr illustrations in a fanzine, and i loved them. And I've seen other single illustrations that I liked. But I can't think of any actual comic stores he did that I cared for. Maybe he just doesn't work well with someone else inking.

    On the other hand there are a Cockrum jobs where he is inking someone else's pencils that I think are very pleasing to the eye. In particular, Cockrum's inks over Gil Kane's pencils in Marvel's first John Carter series smooth over to fine effect some of Kane's more eccentric line work often evident from this stage of his career.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cei-U! View Post
    It isn't often anymore that I encounter a well-regarded classic tale that lives up to the decades-worth of buildup surrounding it but there's no denying that Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen's "Great Darkness Saga" from Legion of Super-Heroes does. It is easily the best Levitz story I've ever read, a genuine epic featuring a credibly deadly and loathsome menace, extremely high stakes, action on a galactic scale, a plethora of excellent character moments and a resolution both clever and satisfying. I wish I hadn't known in advance who the Mystery Baddie was but even so, the aura of creeping dread that permeates the early issues is delish. The only real drawback is the art. Though Giffen's work is visually exciting--he's about halfway through his transition from Kirby clone to Munoz plagiarist--his storytelling is abysmal. There were at least a couple of times in every issue where I simply couldn't tell what was happening or who was involved. In spite of these minor distractions, I found the whole GD Saga enthralling and entertaining, well worth the praise it received back in '82 and all the years since.

    Cei-U!
    And I don't even *like* the Legion!
    I enjoyed the Great Darkness at the time as a solid, well-crafted superhero story, but it hasn't stood up to the test of time as well for me as for you, or at least my memory of it hasn't.

    At the time, I think I was a bit starved for comics - I'd gone off Marvel, the quality of work there having dropped off severely to my mind, and was looking to DC since I hadn't yet been exposed to any of the independent publishers that were coming on the scene then. I remember reading this, the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans, the Wolfman/Colan Night Force and the Pasko/Yeates Swamp Thing.

    In hindsight, I think the latter two books, Night Force and Swamp Thing, were under-rated, while Legion and Teen Titans, though very well done for what they were, feel a little ordinary - about on a par with the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne X-Men, which, to be fair, I also liked well enough around that time or shortly before.

    A lot of that could be due to my tastes having changed over the years, or perhaps to my general indifference to DC's iconic characters and series. Also, even at the time, I was a little put off by spoilers:
    the use of Darkseid as the villain. It made for an effective Legion/superhero story, but it still felt wrong for important New Gods characters such as Orion to appear only as rather ineffective zombie-versions of themselves. To Levitz's credit, at least he addressed the issue, if only obliquely and in passing, in his script, IIRC.
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by prince hal View Post
    I've said this before, but it bears repeating. I can't think of a single more shocking, poignant, and clever ending to a comic story ever. This one has stayed with me, no, haunted me, ever since I first read it off the rack.
    My memory fails me at this point - what was the shock ending? spoilers:
    One of the Legion members died, IIRC - is that what you mean?
    end of spoilers
    Quote Originally Posted by dan bailey View Post
    I'm actually sort of disappointed to see that he's back to more or less xeroxing Kirby (though in some ways it's more like he's xeroxing Tom Scioli's xeroxing of Kirby), much as I like him in that style.
    I was going to say much the same after seeing some of the previews for the new OMAC book. It really doesn't tlook that good. Although I have to admit that I didn't like the look of Scioli's stuff at first either, but I've gotten to the point where I can enjoy it now at some level.

    But yeah, I did like Giffen's Kirby riffing in the Defenders, though. Now that was a book that enjoyed good luck with writers - Englehart, then Gerber, then Kraft, each did an excellent job, although Gerber's stint was so mind-blowingly original that it tends to eclipse everything else.

  8. #188
    *choke* Dan B. in the Underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benday-dot View Post
    On the other hand there are a Cockrum jobs where he is inking someone else's pencils that I think are very pleasing to the eye. In particular, Cockrum's inks over Gil Kane's pencils in Marvel's first John Carter series smooth over to fine effect some of Kane's more eccentric line work often evident from this stage of his career.
    Good call, b-d. I meant to mention this morning that Cockrum had turned in some particularly good work during that series, then got distracted (amazing!) & neglected to look up whether he was pencilling or inking, & whether Kane or Rudy Nebres was involved.
    I tend to split superhero comics fans into "People who like Krypto" and "People who don't like Krypto."
    Basically, if you miss the wonder of a dog flying around in a little Superman cape, you're in the wrong hobby.

    -- Reptisaurus!

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Garth View Post
    It's funny, Cockrum was the first artist I was really hooked on (bear in mind that I was experiencing Cockrum in X-Men & FOOM only a couple of years after I had been picking up early-60s reprints in the UK Marvel comics, so to see this stuff in colour was mind-blowing!), but this was fed by not seeing very much of his artwork. Prior to X-Men, I'd only seen a few spot-illos, I then followed X-men and got heartily sick of the weaknesses of his art by the end of his first run, and I've had an aversion to his art ever since - absolutely loathed his second run on X-Men, and haven't seen anything else of his that I've liked.
    Quote Originally Posted by MDG View Post
    The first Cockrum art I ever saw were some Capt Marvel Jr illustrations in a fanzine, and i loved them. And I've seen other single illustrations that I liked. But I can't think of any actual comic stores he did that I cared for. Maybe he just doesn't work well with someone else inking.
    I like his work generally, but his anatomy could be a little stiff and awkward at times. Not nearly as noticeable as with, say, Mike Grell, but there'd be moments where he seemed to be veering in that direction. But I consider myself a fan. His Mantis, from the Avengers, is an iconic comic book image for me. The picture they used for the TP collection of the Celestial Madonna story, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by benday-dot View Post
    On the other hand there are a Cockrum jobs where he is inking someone else's pencils that I think are very pleasing to the eye. In particular, Cockrum's inks over Gil Kane's pencils in Marvel's first John Carter series smooth over to fine effect some of Kane's more eccentric line work often evident from this stage of his career.
    Penguin used a picture of Dejah Thoris from Marvel's John Carter comic on the cover of a recent edition of A Princess of Mars, and it works surprisingly well. Suprsiingly for me, because I remember being a little ambivalent about the artwork on that series at the time - possibly because my mental imagery was so informed by the Frazetta covers and illos that graced the books where I'd first encountered Barsoom. But I think it's time for me to take another look at the series, because the Penguin cover is very effective. I believe it's Cockrum alone, not Cockrum inking Kane, though.

  10. #190
    Senior Member prince hal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    I
    My memory fails me at this point - what was the shock ending?
    Wish I knew how to do that neat spoiler gimmick, so I'll resort to a primitive warnign:

    SPOILER ALERT/SPOILER ALERT

    A few months after Darkseid is defeated, Saturn Girl, who has at times sensed that she is having twins (As I type this, I hope that Levitz gave some pseudo-scientific reason that 30th century medicine had no way of knowing how many fetuses were in utero), goes into labor, during which the hospital is enveloped by a "great darkness." Nevertheless, she gives brth to a son. Happy, happy, joy, joy!

    Except that the darkness was a part of Darkseid's ultimate revenge. SG indeed was pregnant with twins, but Darkseid snatches the other child, a boy whom Darkseid mutilates, disfigures, and transforms into a monstrous version of what he might have been. He hurls the creature into the past, where he will be known as Validus, the brutish lightning-wielding member of the Fatal Five, fulfilling his curse that the purest of the Legionnaires will be the first to fall. (Paraphrase)

    Whether LL or SG ever learned of this in one or another of the Legion's many incarnations, or whether it's still canon, I don't know. This was not really a ret-con, but an "ah-ha" plot twist that made sense, given Validus's lightning-based powers.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by prince hal View Post
    Wish I knew how to do that neat spoiler gimmick, so I'll resort to a primitive warnign:

    SPOILER ALERT/SPOILER ALERT

    A few months after Darkseid is defeated, Saturn Girl, who has at times sensed that she is having twins (As I type this, I hope that Levitz gave some pseudo-scientific reason that 30th century medicine had no way of knowing how many fetuses were in utero), goes into labor, during which the hospital is enveloped by a "great darkness." Nevertheless, she gives brth to a son. Happy, happy, joy, joy!

    Except that the darkness was a part of Darkseid's ultimate revenge. SG indeed was pregnant with twins, but Darkseid snatches the other child, a boy whom Darkseid mutilates, disfigures, and transforms into a monstrous version of what he might have been. He hurls the creature into the past, where he will be known as Validus, the brutish lightning-wielding member of the Fatal Five, fulfilling his curse that the purest of the Legionnaires will be the first to fall. (Paraphrase)

    Whether LL or SG ever learned of this in one or another of the Legion's many incarnations, or whether it's still canon, I don't know. This was not really a ret-con, but an "ah-ha" plot twist that made sense, given Validus's lightning-based powers.
    Ah, that sounds familiar, though I haven't read it since way back when it first came out. But I wouldn't have known about Validus as an already existing character, so that's probably why it didn't stick in my mind the way it would have for readers more up on DCU/Legion history.

    BTW, the spoiler tags are ["spoil"] and ["/spoil"], without the quotes.

  12. #192
    *choke* Dan B. in the Underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    Penguin used a picture of Dejah Thoris from Marvel's John Carter comic on the cover of a recent edition of A Princess of Mars, and it works surprisingly well. Suprsiingly for me, because I remember being a little ambivalent about the artwork on that series at the time - possibly because my mental imagery was so informed by the Frazetta covers and illos that graced the books where I'd first encountered Barsoom. But I think it's time for me to take another look at the series, because the Penguin cover is very effective. I believe it's Cockrum alone, not Cockrum inking Kane, though.
    Presumably the image came from the cover of #11 --



    -- which the GCD credits as

    Pencils: Dave Cockrum
    Inks: Rudy Nebres; Dave Cockrum (Dejah Thoris) ?
    I suppose the question mark is over whether Nebres had anything to do with the Dejah Thoris rendition, as opposed to the background image of John Carter & the Thark in battle.
    Last edited by Dan B. in the Underworld; 09-16-2011 at 09:27 PM.
    I tend to split superhero comics fans into "People who like Krypto" and "People who don't like Krypto."
    Basically, if you miss the wonder of a dog flying around in a little Superman cape, you're in the wrong hobby.

    -- Reptisaurus!

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan bailey View Post
    Presumably the image came from the cover of #11 --



    -- which the GCD credits as



    I suppose the question mark is over whether Nebres had anything to do with the Dejah Thoris rendition, as opposed to the background image of John Carter in battle.
    I usually dislike Nebres's inking style but don't find it noticeable here - maybe because the image is smaller on the GCD site and on the book cover.

  14. #194
    Senior Member pmpknface's Avatar
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    FYI - If you like Cockrum's art, follow Jim Shooter's blog!
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  15. #195
    NOT Bucky O'Hare! The Confessor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan bailey View Post
    Presumably the image came from the cover of #11 --


    *sigh* I want to someday own all 28 isssues of this series. I read some of the issues via, errr-hum....electronic means a while ago and loved it. I particularly liked the Cockrum and Infantino art on this series.
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