Ultimate Spider-Man Cartoon

[Broseidon]

Now you're just being silly. Kind of like the show. Which is why I enjoy it. I don't take it seriously; in fact, I don't think it's meant to. Since you seem to be a selective reader, I'll reiterate that the general tone set is supposed to be reminiscent of the old Adam West Barman series. There's plenty of bright chromatic colors and exaggerated still shots of fight scenes. It's not meant to be dark or gritty. The Dini cartoons were there to dispel the notion that cartoons lacked any kind of complexity or "edginess" and to prove that they could be quality productions for both the young and old alike. I'd go so far to say as we wouldn't have made such great leaps and bounds in establishing the legitimacy of animation without it, companies like Pixar being prime examples.

Returning to the argument, I think you're overemphasizing (or overextending) the magnitude of your examples. Your idea of "dark" (which I still don't believe is an accurate way to gauge the QUALITY of a show) is still disproportional to the old 90's cartoons. Let's look at Batman Beyond, which happens to actually exceed the original in my opinion. Going off of reruns I've seen on Hub in the past few days, there's been several episodes that far exceed whatever BatB has done.

*A mechanical bioengineer's wife was kidnapped by a group of thugs who threatened to kill her if he didn't enhance their bodies with artificial appendages. The wife was this man's whole world; before he met her, he was dedicated entirely to his work. He truly feel in lover with her. He later finds it was all a scam and that his wife never really loved him. Batman effectively renders all the thugs at the end of the episode limbless using a safeguard in their programming; the only thug that survives (who happens to be the wife's actual lover) goes back to the engineer to get upgrades, only to get slaughtered on the operating table as he's going under.

*The Batman Beyond Return of the Joker movie/extended episodes. There's a lot to say about this one, but the key events being the Joker brainwashing Tim Drake Robin through explicitly shown electroshock therapy and chemical injections and then turning him on Batman. The Joker subsequently gets shot by Robin.

*Bane's Venom is given a sort of post-modern treatment in the form of a pseudo-drug awareness/anti-steroids episode. The chemical is being distibuted among students at the high school Batman attends, giving the athletes an extra edge but also inducing psychotic rage as well addiction with crippling amounts of withdrawal.

*A recurring villain named Inque returns as her genetically altered body begins to deteriorate. She seeks her long-lost daughter for help, who initially obliges. During a fight with Batman, it's revealed that the daughter cares very little for her maternal parent and in a surprising twist, kills her just to acquire the money she's been collecting through her various heists. The real beauty in this episode is the mother-daughter relationship that seemed to build up until the end.

These are just a couple examples. Themes touched upon include genetic engineering, the effects of radiation on the environment, the Oedipus Complex, the role of nuclear power following the age of deterrence, the privatization of government, corruption of the police (which is actually touched upon in most Batman media), and the questioning of our perception of reality (a la Matrix style).

I'm not quite sure you've watched the Dini 'toons, to be honest. But if they're not your cup of tea that's fine. I have a feeling this isn't going to change your mind in the slightest.

(Just a tip, much darker is redundant as darker already implies its superiority and sympathic isn't a word.)

[Drz]

Now you're just being silly.

Am i now? You asked for dark tunes and i gave them to you on top of my head.

I'll reiterate that the general tone set is supposed to be reminiscent of the old Adam West Barman series.

All cartoons are pretty much Bronze Aged shows with either colorful or dark backgrounds, both BTAS and Brave and Bold are pretty mature enough for me to be seen as Bronze Aged, which was the fine line with sci-fi, camp and serious story telling.

There's plenty of bright chromatic colors and exaggerated still shots of fight scenes. It's not meant to be dark or gritty.

Yet the episode HAS dark and gritty episodes, and alongside it has very dark moments aswell. We both know the general tune of the show, but that doesn't make me wrong when i clearly point out dark moments on the show for you, which are taken seriously as the music and characters give the mood, you don't go laughing at the Wayne murders that you see happen infront of a child, now you go sad.

The Dini cartoons were there to dispel the notion that cartoons lacked any kind of complexity or "edginess" and to prove that they could be quality productions for both the young and old alike.

And same thing can easily be said about Brave and Bold.

*A mechanical bioengineer's wife was kidnapped by a group of thugs who threatened to kill her if he didn't enhance their bodies with artificial appendages. The wife was this man's whole world; before he met her, he was dedicated entirely to his work. He truly feel in lover with her. He later finds it was all a scam and that his wife never really loved him. Batman effectively renders all the thugs at the end of the episode limbless using a safeguard in their programming; the only thug that survives (who happens to be the wife's actual lover) goes back to the engineer to get upgrades, only to get slaughtered on the operating table as he's going under.

Reminds me of the Red Tornado episode where his son mafunctions and goes batshit insane, forcing Red Tornado to stop the creation he literally loved and got depressed upon his death, even tho Red Tornado was suppose to not have any emotions programmed in, he actualy did hold emotions. Also i don't see how this was any darker than the examples i've given. The villain got what he deserved by karma, Spectre (voiced by Mark Hamill) kills both Joe Chill and a scientist in the show and delivers them their gruesome ends.

*The Batman Beyond Return of the Joker movie/extended episodes. There's a lot to say about this one, but the key events being the Joker brainwashing Tim Drake Robin through explicitly shown electroshock therapy and chemical injections and then turning him on Batman. The Joker subsequently gets shot by Robin.

Yeah movies will always go darker than cartoons, just like Mask of Phantasm and others, this isn't anything new. Yet Brave and Bold as a cartoon has shown people getting shot right in the face, wheres the Dini toons needed a movie to show actual gun murder.

These are just a couple examples. Themes touched upon include genetic engineering, the effects of radiation on the environment, the Oedipus Complex, the role of nuclear power following the age of deterrence, the privatization of government, corruption of the police (which is actually touched upon in most Batman media), and the questioning of our perception of reality (a la Matrix style).

And how is this so much darker then the examples i gave on Brave and Bold? Glasglow smiles, a world rule by super villains wherre civillians live in terror and fear constantly, you got slavery and bounty hunting, you got direct murders and gun shots, childs in danger that are just mere babies, death, sacrifise, redemption... So much more personal trauma than what you've given example out of Batman Beyond really. Also i don't really know can we argue about the effects on radiation on the environment since that just was one man's corpse being angry at his murder, not really showing the real damage of radiation on the environment unless i msised some other episode.

I'm not quite sure you've watched the Dini 'toons, to be honest. But if they're not your cup of tea that's fine. I have a feeling this isn't going to change your mind in the slightest.

Just because i disagree with you doesn't mean i haven' seen it. I've watched all Batman cartoons even that horrible *horrible' the Batman show.

[wyokid]

Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can....

[Broseidon]

BatB is Golden/Silver Age, Bronze is like 70's-80's comics. Although you are right that it was where things started to make some progress.

I didn't really understand what you said in that second part so much, but I think it's something along the lines of that it mixes action and comedy? Regarding the murder of the Waynes, it's always been pretty clear that they were shot. I'm pretty sure any kid that has any remote idea of who Batman is knows that they got shot. And even then, I'm pretty sure no matter how "bold" it is, BatB doesn't show them getting shot directly. Off-camera or a fade-to-black kind of thing, but nothing explicit.

The point I was making there is that BTAS was a pioneer and an influence for many later works outside its accepted medium. I don't really believe BatB has brought anything new to the table, or at least nothing noteworthy enough to garner any real attention. BTAS won Emmy awards and helped to inspire some elements of the Batman we know today.

I'll give you that one, the Red Tornado episode was fairly touching. However, I still think that the delivery of that episode could've been handled much better. Looking back more carefully, I see that I didn't clearly identify that there's a certain artfulness to the Dini cartoons I don't find in many others nowadays. From the animation to the scripting to the voice acting, I think the Dini 'toons excelled in this regard. Diedrich Bader makes a great Batman voice, but Kevin Conroy is forever the Batman I will know and love. What I'm saying is that the delivery of the plot and the subtlety of which the message is delivered is often the key factor in deciding whether or not it's a quality episode. Maybe it's not entirely the creative team on BatB's fault, but it seems that serious themes are too dumbed down and diluted to carry any real weight.

Also, referring back to that previous point in this next section, what are said results of personal trauma? Has this been shown to have any detrimental change over time on any of the characters? I think you brought up Aquaman's depression at one point. what was that caused by? And why was he depressed? Was it for a legitimate reason? And barrels of radioactive waste (which I may remind you is impossible to get rid of artificially) are a recurring source of danger. Judging by this, I think it's fair to infer that the technology-laden society of Neo-Gotham hasn't progressed far enough to adequately deal with the problems of the early 21st century. Take this vein of thought and apply it to the environments each episode takes place in and you have an incredibly rich and complex world that's been crafted for the purposes of a children's cartoon. Very few shows have created such a dense and firmly established mythos within a span of 2-3 seasons outside of shows like the Venture Bros. or certain anime (that have run for hundreds of episodes!). You can't just conceptualize a plot and expect it to yield results; you have to take other factors into account. And if you're fine with ignoring that, then I don't know what to say.

[Drz]

BatB is Golden/Silver Age, Bronze is like 70's-80's comics. Although you are right that it was where things started to make some progress.

Yes i know what Bronze Age is, and i know the tunes of those stories and i can easily with confidence say all Batman cartoons are very Bronze Age with their tunes, but Brave and Bold has brighter backgrounds usually and BTAS has darker. BatB is nomeans Golden Age and neither was BTAS. Silver Age inspirations are evident in BatB but the show has far more serious tuned episode than laugh for gag ones.

I didn't really understand what you said in that second part so much, but I think it's something along the lines of that it mixes action and comedy? Regarding the murder of the Waynes, it's always been pretty clear that they were shot. I'm pretty sure any kid that has any remote idea of who Batman is knows that they got shot. And even then, I'm pretty sure no matter how "bold" it is, BatB doesn't show them getting shot directly. Off-camera or a fade-to-black kind of thing, but nothing explicit.

It shows them getting directly shot, how about you start episodes before you try to argue againts it?

The point I was making there is that BTAS was a pioneer and an influence for many later works outside its accepted medium. I don't really believe BatB has brought anything new to the table, or at least nothing noteworthy enough to garner any real attention. BTAS won Emmy awards and helped to inspire some elements of the Batman we know today.

Batman Brave and Bold received an Emmy nomination for Neil Patrick Harris' outstanding guest appearance as the Music Meister, but are we really gonna change the topic on how BTAS was a major influence to animation? Because i'm not bothering with that, we both know BTAS is a major influence, but the topic at hand was that Brave and Bold has managed to go darker than BTAS ever could. Not to i do consider BTAS overrated because for every "Two-Face" or "Heart of Cold" episode you had episodes like "theres a Batman in my basement" and the show managed to ruin its own villains with making Killer Croc a joke, Clayface into a mere thug and i really disliked what they did to Two-Face with the 3rd persona thing.

Diedrich Bader makes a great Batman voice, but Kevin Conroy is forever the Batman I will know and love.

Diedrich Bader's Batman voice is perfect for today's Batman who carries nobility and the Bruce Wayne persona, Kevin Conroy is more of that dark loner pessimistic Batman who sees himself rather alone despite having sidekicks and good number of friends? It was pretty sad how BTAS' Batman ends up all alone ultimately, but yeah Diedrich's Bat voice is perfect for something like what Grant Morrison is doing with Batman, showing the Bruce Wayne and Batman as one person and being this charismatic noble leader of a whole nation of Batmen. Still you gotta admit it's nice that you even admit Bader's voice is great, not good, decent but great. Thats a good achievement for Bader when Kevin Conroy is *the* Batman for alot of people.

What I'm saying is that the delivery of the plot and the subtlety of which the message is delivered is often the key factor in deciding whether or not it's a quality episode. Maybe it's not entirely the creative team on BatB's fault, but it seems that serious themes are too dumbed down and diluted to carry any real weight.

Also, referring back to that previous point in this next section, what are said results of personal trauma? Has this been shown to have any detrimental change over time on any of the characters? I think you brought up Aquaman's depression at one point. what was that caused by? And why was he depressed? Was it for a legitimate reason?

Aquaman failed to save lives and that made him depressed, like i said he failed to stop whale hunters for murdering whales and that really depressed Aquaman, then we got the Red Tornado episode, we got Ted Kord's heroic sacrifise that effects both the new Blue Beetle and in even Booster Gold has to accept his friend's death and not screw the time continuum. Then you got the "Shadow of the Bat" episode where Batman murders Black Mask and Alfred (Alfred off screen, you do see him drink Black Mask dry, both tho probably became vampires?) and the episode originally ends with all the vampires and Vamp Batman getting burned by the sunlight. WB didn't approve of this sad ending so they forced an ending where Batman wakes up and Martian Manhunter tells he was having a bad dream.

Then you got "Knights of Tomorrow" which alongside Chill of the Night shows a child lose his parents, tho Bruce and Selene die in an explosion, but it is a heart touching moment for both Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne.

The episode can be really dark as much as BTAS can be really silly and funny with Melting Bat-mites and Girls Night Out and so on.

And barrels of radioactive waste (which I may remind you is impossible to get rid of artificially) are a recurring source of danger. Judging by this, I think it's fair to infer that the technology-laden society of Neo-Gotham hasn't progressed far enough to adequately deal with the problems of the early 21st century. Take this vein of thought and apply it to the environments each episode takes place in and you have an incredibly rich and complex world that's been crafted for the purposes of a children's cartoon.

I can't really remember mucha bout this, was there more than that episode with the toxin-powered father who was angry about the corrupt man adopting his biological daughter? I just can't recall them treating radioactive waste in such manner but more about that there was a super villain, but yeah i get your point.

[wyokid]

Is he strong, listen bud, he's got radioactive blood...

[OrpheusTelos]

Is he strong, listen bud, he's got radioactive blood...

In other words, stop talking about Batman in a Spider-Man thread.

[Broseidon]

The topic is which cartoon is superior. I think winning Emmys is legitimate supporting evidence. Not just being nominated, but actually winning. Especially in a time when animated productions hadn't been really integrated into media. And the nomination was for Neil Patrick Harris's performance on the show, not for the show itself. Huge difference.

As for the murder, I'm nearly 100% sure they don't show a bullet piercing their chests and followed by them bleeding out. There's no way that would make it past the censors.

I'm sure Diedrich Bader's voice is perfect for the BatB cartoon where he's the central figure in a universe of team-ups because someone with charisma is necessary for that role. However, it doesn't make him better than Conroy. They exist on different axis, with one emphasizing the loner Batman with all his brutality and badassness and the other depicting the Morrison Batman that serves as a charismatic leader who always has a plan. They're very different characters, and each voice actor suits his role. Me, along with the millions of Batman fans everywhere, are in love with or have at least grown accustomed to the former.

I guess the fact that you continue to not address certain aspects of my argument means you concede those points. Unless you're just ignoring them for your own sake. My main point is that the Dini cartoons (not just BTAS) were done with a lot of love and care in everything from the animation to the writing. The fans knew it, the critics knew it, and it culminated in something that's really just one of a kind. I'm not saying that BatB isn't quality, just that it's not as good as the old ones. I'm sorry I keep going back to that Doom Patrol episode, but it just really bothered me. That episode right there is evidence of how a good concept can be turned mediocre by poor delivery. I had a very hard time caring about what had occurred in that episode; especially that message at the end where like 5 people started chanting "We are the Doom Patrol!" It's not that it was corny, but it totally invalidated their deaths in that the "lesson" learned had very little to do with their sacrifice. There was just some disconnect at that point, and I just don't really care enough to justify it. It can hardly be called a poignant episode if you fail to adequately get the message across. There are several other episodes that suffer from the same syndrome.

[Drz]

The topic is which cartoon is superior. I think winning Emmys is legitimate supporting evidence. Not just being nominated, but actually winning. Especially in a time when animated productions hadn't been really integrated into media. And the nomination was for Neil Patrick Harris's performance on the show, not for the show itself. Huge difference.

Neil Patrick Harris' performance came from the musicals that the show wrote for him, not to mention we're seriously gonna go with the Emmy argument? It's as love-hate relationshipped as Oscar arguments are.

If we're going to seriously go with Emmy argument, then the Batman show wins due to receiving 6 daytime emmy awards (or was it 5?) compared to what? 2 or 3 that BTAS won? And i really really *really* dislike the Batman show for multitude of reasons.

As for the murder, I'm nearly 100% sure they don't show a bullet piercing their chests and followed by them bleeding out. There's no way that would make it past the censors.

Nope, but you see the gun shot directly hit Thomas Wayne as he falls down and then the next shot hits Martha, then it cuts to crying Bruce swearing a war againts crime.

I'm sure Diedrich Bader's voice is perfect for the BatB cartoon where he's the central figure in a universe of team-ups because someone with charisma is necessary for that role. However, it doesn't make him better than Conroy.

Liking a different voice actor is like having a different taste in music than the next person to you, if you prefer Conroy thats cool. If you wanna make a real argument about whats the best Batman voice, well then that'd go to Christian Bale but we both know how much people laugh at his Dark Knight voice, comics have never said that Batman has a voice like Conroy's, it's always been more like this Clint Eastwood ruff guy voice, but hey we prefer the voices we want to, i'm not here to argue whos a better voice, when thats personal preference, but the most comic loyal voice would go more or less to Bale, and thats comedy.

They exist on different axis, with one emphasizing the loner Batman with all his brutality and badassness and the other depicting the Morrison Batman that serves as a charismatic leader who always has a plan. They're very different characters, and each voice actor suits his role. Me, along with the millions of Batman fans everywhere, are in love with or have at least grown accustomed to the former.

Alot of people liking something doesn't make it better, tons of people love the Twilight franchise, doesn't change the fact it has horrible characterizations and whatnot.

I guess the fact that you continue to not address certain aspects of my argument means you concede those points. Unless you're just ignoring them for your own sake. My main point is that the Dini cartoons (not just BTAS) were done with a lot of love and care in everything from the animation to the writing. The fans knew it, the critics knew it, and it culminated in something that's really just one of a kind.

I'm sorry what? Are you trying to tell me that Brave and Bold hasn't been done with alot of love and care from voice acting to animation to writing? I'm sorry but what kinda biased argument is this? Where does this even come from outside of your nostalgia factory?

I'm not saying that BatB isn't quality, just that it's not as good as the old ones.

Because? Brave and Bold doesn't suffer from episodes such as "theres a Batman in my basement" nor did it ruin Killer Croc, Clayface or any of it's own villains at all, so how come Dini cartoons that we're made with love and whatnot manage to ruin their OWN characters when Brave and Bold doesn't suffer the same issues? Unless you're telling me turning the sympathic Clayface into a mere thug, Killer Croc into a "rock thrower" joke and Two-Face suddenly "hey my anger side is evil, not a complex personality with conflicts" yeah, the list goes on. Take off your nostalgia goggles.

I'm sorry I keep going back to that Doom Patrol episode, but it just really bothered me. That episode right there is evidence of how a good concept can be turned mediocre by poor delivery. I had a very hard time caring about what had occurred in that episode; especially that message at the end where like 5 people started chanting "We are the Doom Patrol!" It's not that it was corny, but it totally invalidated their deaths in that the "lesson" learned had very little to do with their sacrifice. There was just some disconnect at that point, and I just don't really care enough to justify it. It can hardly be called a poignant episode if you fail to adequately get the message across.

It showed that "all men are brothers" as it doesn't matter if you're a mistfit or society or your appearance alienates you from others, it showed that you and me can be part of this society despite whenever or not you're a Mut... Oh yeah this does reek of X-Men, why? X-Men ripped off Doom Patrol. Not to it was the whole world, yeah the show scenes that 1 particular city where the whole group (more then your 5 people) starts chanting "we're all the doom patrol" and the episode pretty much concludes the same way as the Silver Age series did, with the addition of Batman being in the episode. The episode demonstrated very emotionally that we're all brothers, no matter if we're different with genes and whatnot.

There are several other episodes that suffer from the same syndrome.

Which would be? Also i'd like to know if Batman Beyond actually did treat radiation as a real issue or just as that one episode super villain thing, you didn't answer that, at all.

[derekakadrock]

The topic is which cartoon is superior.

Actually, the topic is this new Spider-Man cartoon.

[Joseph C.]

Actually, the topic is this new Spider-Man cartoon.

I concur. This argument would be better suited in the Media Forums.

[wyokid]

Look out there goes the Spider-Man

[Broseidon]

Hey, I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that the Doom Patrol episode was fucking stupid. I'm not arguing semantics with you here because quite frankly it's irrelevant if the show does it with all the subtlety of a dump truck.

I've never watched The Batman, so I can't give an accurate comparison. Going off of Wikipedia, it seems the majority of those Emmys are for sound editing, so I'm not really sure that counts for much.

I'll give you that one for the Wayne murder. I remember the episode vaguely, but I didn't remember a full on-screen shooting.

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying about Conroy vs. Bader. I was saying that both are suited to their respective TV shows and that you can't accurately pit them against each other, as they represent different Batmen. Who are both great in their own right, it's just that they represent two ends on the spectrum and wouldn't be able to do each other's respective roles as well as the other.

Let's start this off by saying that sympathic isn't a word. I think you mean sympathetic, but I'm still not sure that's being used right. How exactly are the characters being ruined? Recurring characters like Plastic Man and Bat-Mite are just as flat as anything you'd find in any cartoon series. And if we're bringing up stupid episodes, what about that one whose entire plot was centered around turning everyone into gorillas? I HATE shit like that.

I'm not arguing semantics here. There's usually a message behind everything; usually it's just a matter of how well it's conveyed. I cited the Doom Patrol episode as an example of a good concept that had a bad delivery. It actually started off as a very nice episode; Batman bringing all the disillusioned members out of retirement to fight the good fight and save the world. And I'm not saying it was one city, the conflict implied the whole world was in peril. But were they able to adequately impose the magnitude of the situation upon the audience? And yeah, somebody got lazy towards the end of that episode. This sounds somewhat nitpicky, but if the whole fucking world is in danger, I'd think that there'd be more than a handful of civilian onlookers screaming in terror. And if we're gonna say that the message is "we're all brothers" then let's ask what was the original situation BEFORE the lesson was learned. What evidence was there that people harbored animosity towards the genetically altered? Was this lesson learned solely because they sacrificed themselves for the world? How do the majority of these random people even know who the Doom Patrol are? It's vastly unexplained. We're not here to argue about the X-Men similarities (I don't really know why you brought it up, I honestly don't care) but what X-Men does differently is that within the Marvel Universe, mutants represent a large minority group within the world. They're not one big universal team, they're a whole race that's hated and mistrusted by society. Doom Patrol is one team of individuals that face scrutiny for being "freaks of nature." The X-Men concept has really matured over the years and exists on a greater scope than that of the Doom Patrol. X-Men often has them saving the world from various threats on a regular basis, and yet it shows that no matter what they do they'll still be hated and misunderstood for it. X-Men occasionally die in the process. The Doom Patrol sacrifices themselves and all of a sudden the whole world loves them. X-Men is a far more cynical take on the topic, and I kind of like the poetic justice of the episode (in that the Doom Patrol was finally revered for their heroism). But it still wasn't done very well.

And regarding the radiation thing, there are a number of villains that are a result of its harmful nature such as Derrick Powers/Blight, the Terrific Trio, and Earth Mover (who you mentioned). It's also implied that the majority of the villains are a result of chemical/radiation-based incidents.

[wyokid]

Okay seriously guys! Spider-man!


The voice talent for this show looks incredible!

[thecrimson]

Okay seriously guys! Spider-man!


The voice talent for this show looks incredible!

I know. Those two are ticking me off.

The guy voicing Spidey also does Phineas from Phineas and Ferb, right? (as well as Chris' white friend from Everybody Hates Chris)