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  1. #3406
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    It wasn't all 'look how good Tim is.' He primarily thought of their relationship in terms of his own wants/needs.

    And I think you're looking too far into it in talking about a lesson. Dixon was merely looking for a teenage problem he hadn't already used and happened to do a great job writing about it.

  2. #3407
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    It wasn't all 'look how good Tim is.' He primarily thought of their relationship in terms of his own wants/needs.

    And I think you're looking too far into it in talking about a lesson. Dixon was merely looking for a teenage problem he hadn't already used and happened to do a great job writing about it.
    Perhaps we should leave this particular discussion at this point and let everyone get back to Appreciating Stephanie, but it was interesting to speculate about it.

  3. #3408
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Her becoming pregnant makes sense at that particular time. She put all of her hopes for a better life on Tim, only to have him crush those hopes over the phone, and she sank into despair of ever escaping the world she lived in an did something stupid in her depression. She was always more serious about Tim than Dean but it never occured to her, even with that first date in which they were out all night, to take their relationship beyond kissing.
    Wait, are you implying that Steph slept with Dean because she was depressed that Tim rejected her? I don't think that was shown in the comics, is it an assumption or there's a panel I'm missing somewhere?

  4. #3409
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aprillis View Post
    Wait, are you implying that Steph slept with Dean because she was depressed that Tim rejected her? I don't think that was shown in the comics, is it an assumption or there's a panel I'm missing somewhere?
    It'd more than that. Like I've said, the way I see it she saw Tim as her best hope for escaping the world of violence, abuse, sex, and drugs she was born into. So when Tim pulled his preemptive breakup over the phone stunt he did more than reject her; he crushed her hopes for a better life than her mother had. With little hope left for a better future she sank deeper into the world she had previously been trying to escape from.

    While that is speculation, it takes into account the degree to which she was shown to be crushed when Tim rejected her, the lack of any affection she had for Dean, her 'you're too good for me' comment, the lack of any sexual activity with the person she was actually attracted to, and the reasoning for giving the baby up for adoption. While we'll never know for sure what happened and why, I think my analysis does a better job of exploring what this one mistake means for her character than just saying 'she did it because she had low self-esteem; which is the most common explanation.

  5. #3410
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    It'd more than that. Like I've said, the way I see it she saw Tim as her best hope for escaping the world of violence, abuse, sex, and drugs she was born into. So when Tim pulled his preemptive breakup over the phone stunt he did more than reject her; he crushed her hopes for a better life than her mother had. With little hope left for a better future she sank deeper into the world she had previously been trying to escape from.

    While that is speculation, it takes into account the degree to which she was shown to be crushed when Tim rejected her, the lack of any affection she had for Dean, her 'you're too good for me' comment, the lack of any sexual activity with the person she was actually attracted to, and the reasoning for giving the baby up for adoption. While we'll never know for sure what happened and why, I think my analysis does a better job of exploring what this one mistake means for her character than just saying 'she did it because she had low self-esteem; which is the most common explanation.
    I thought that we had come to the end of this particular topic, but as you raise a new point here goes. As an actor will often choose a particular type of rolé in the hope of winning an Oscar, a writer may use a particular story line which is currently fashionable in similar hopes of winning an award, which this story did. A real world explanation for a fictional event and I may be wrong, but it could be as simple as that.
    Last edited by Bluebow; 12-30-2012 at 01:15 PM.

  6. #3411
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    It'd more than that. Like I've said, the way I see it she saw Tim as her best hope for escaping the world of violence, abuse, sex, and drugs she was born into. So when Tim pulled his preemptive breakup over the phone stunt he did more than reject her; he crushed her hopes for a better life than her mother had. With little hope left for a better future she sank deeper into the world she had previously been trying to escape from.

    While that is speculation, it takes into account the degree to which she was shown to be crushed when Tim rejected her, the lack of any affection she had for Dean, her 'you're too good for me' comment, the lack of any sexual activity with the person she was actually attracted to, and the reasoning for giving the baby up for adoption. While we'll never know for sure what happened and why, I think my analysis does a better job of exploring what this one mistake means for her character than just saying 'she did it because she had low self-esteem; which is the most common explanation.
    I don't think she took the rejection to that degree, seeing that she was still pretty flirtatious with Tim even after that. Besides, right after he rejected her on the phone, she got kidnapped and Tim confessed his attraction to her, so I don't think Tim drove her to seek attention from random boys either. I think she was just a naturally sexual person, and probably had a few boyfriends before Tim (she did say that if her mother liked Tim, he'd be the first. Meaning she had ex-boyfriends.) Dean was probably just one of those guys she was half-heartedly fooling around with, but she came to her senses when the earthquake happened (the whole arc with her and Huntress where she decided she wanted to be Spoiler not because of the thrills or a boy or to get back at her father, but because she genuinely wanted to help people).

    I also always thought her pregnancy sobered her up, sort of a wake-up call to take responsibility into her hands. So maybe I don't fall into the 'she slept with Dean because of low-self-esteem' camp, but more of 'she was immature and impulsive', which she learnt better after her pregnancy. If she had never gotten pregnant, I don't think she'd be the Steph we all know and love today because she wouldn't have matured and changed her priorities. She probably would have pulled an Ariana on Tim too.
    Last edited by Aprillis; 12-30-2012 at 02:26 PM.

  7. #3412
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    With her resistance to wangst, any time something visibly upsets her, it really, really gets to her. She broke down crying when Tim called, and then was shaken up enough by the Baffler incident to seriously consider quitting for the first time. She'd already used fliting with Tim as a way to avoid thinking about her own problems in the past.

    The way I see it for most of her life she was deliberately trying to avoid being like either of her parents. So I think the drugs and sex thing would have been connected, one to be avoided as much as the other. I very much got the impression that she had sex once, or at least with just one person, from most of her dialogue, the talk about mistakes and such. I wouldn't rule out the possibility she and Dean slept together more than once. It was also very strongly implied outside of that one line that she did not have much of a social or dating life before Dean, which was why she had so much time to go kick criminal butt on what she called date nights.

    And I don't think she'd ever pull an Ariana on Tim. For one I doubt she'd do that with someone who's name and face she didn't know. She wouldn't do anything that she thought would cause trouble between them. And I don't think she was ever promiscuous, just that she happened to be in a hopeless place at the time. You can see my 'progression of Steph's motivations posts a few pages back.

    She was always the Steph I know and love. And while there was a maturation process, it wasn't that severe.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 12-31-2012 at 04:28 AM.

  8. #3413
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    I'm not saying that she's promiscuous, she's just not a prude. In issue #16, she even invited Tim into her room while she was changing, hinting that her mother wasn't home. So yeah, she's pretty flirtatious from the beginning.

    I just think that it's a bit stretching to say that her entire motivation to sleep with Dean is because of Tim. I'm sure she's better than that.

  9. #3414
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aprillis View Post
    I'm not saying that she's promiscuous, she's just not a prude. In issue #16, she even invited Tim into her room while she was changing, hinting that her mother wasn't home. So yeah, she's pretty flirtatious from the beginning.

    I just think that it's a bit stretching to say that her entire motivation to sleep with Dean is because of Tim. I'm sure she's better than that.
    And why did they depict Dean as such a charmless oaf? At least before Stephanie got pregnant he should have had some kind of plausible appeal.

  10. #3415
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    I think it the bad place she was in, not Tim specifically. She wasn't trying to get back at Tim, but she was feeling hopeless.

    The point of the "You can come in. My mother's not home." scene was to show that she resented her mother for placing her so low on her priorities list that sh didn't notice her daughter was kidnapped and held hostage for 2 weeks. You can see in the art that when she said that Steph was already fully clothed and just had the mask and cape to put on. She even already ahad that strap that went over her shoulder and connected to her belt on.

  11. #3416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    And why did they depict Dean as such a charmless oaf? At least before Stephanie got pregnant he should have had some kind of plausible appeal.
    Didn't he only appear like twice? The first time I remember seeing him was in the Huntress/Spoiler oneshot during Cataclysm. Sure he acted like a little bitch, but they were literally right in the middle of an earthquake so maybe some slack can be cut. The second time was when he came back to ask if the baby was his, and Steph beat the shit out of him. Which was pretty harsh by her lol, but she was working out alot of frustrations on him.

    Whether they wanted to show him as an oaf, or if they wanted to show he had some kind of appeal is kinda beside the point because they barely showed any of him at all. Obviously there had to be something that attracted Steph to him, but they never showed enough of him to figure out what that was.
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  12. #3417
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_Dark View Post
    Didn't he only appear like twice? The first time I remember seeing him was in the Huntress/Spoiler oneshot during Cataclysm. Sure he acted like a little bitch, but they were literally right in the middle of an earthquake so maybe some slack can be cut. The second time was when he came back to ask if the baby was his, and Steph beat the shit out of him. Which was pretty harsh by her lol, but she was working out alot of frustrations on him.

    Whether they wanted to show him as an oaf, or if they wanted to show he had some kind of appeal is kinda beside the point because they barely showed any of him at all. Obviously there had to be something that attracted Steph to him, but they never showed enough of him to figure out what that was.
    He was a real sleazebag when he 'returned.' He was dismissive about the fact that he fathered a child and the fact that Steph had to caary it to term without him and give it up for adoption. He deserved exactly what he got.

  13. #3418
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_Dark View Post
    Didn't he only appear like twice? The first time I remember seeing him was in the Huntress/Spoiler oneshot during Cataclysm. Sure he acted like a little bitch, but they were literally right in the middle of an earthquake so maybe some slack can be cut. The second time was when he came back to ask if the baby was his, and Steph beat the shit out of him. Which was pretty harsh by her lol, but she was working out alot of frustrations on him.

    Whether they wanted to show him as an oaf, or if they wanted to show he had some kind of appeal is kinda beside the point because they barely showed any of him at all. Obviously there had to be something that attracted Steph to him, but they never showed enough of him to figure out what that was.
    Exactly my point, they should have had a bit of a build up to the event and made it somewhat plausible even as an instantly regretted error of judgement. It is that which makes me believe that this was a case of shoehorning an issue they wanted to use on to the character instead of a more character led way of writing and he got off lightly with one kick in the groin versus eighteen years of child support payments.
    Last edited by Bluebow; 12-31-2012 at 05:25 PM.

  14. #3419
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Has anyone else noticed how close the bad guys seemed to assume Steph was to Batman once she became Batgirl? Ra's called her 'the girl apprentice' when technically Cass and Babs were more deserving of that title. So much so that I at first thought 'the first love' was talking about her relationship with Tim instead of Bruce before I realized that iJulie Madison was one of the targets. Then in Leviathan Strikes the other students, who don't even know Batgirl exists, immediately jump to the conclusion that she is Batman's daughter.

    There was something about her independant of the costume that made people think she was really close, like family close, to Batman. I find that really interesting.

  15. #3420
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Has anyone else noticed how close the bad guys seemed to assume Steph was to Batman once she became Batgirl? Ra's called her 'the girl apprentice' when technically Cass and Babs were more deserving of that title. So much so that I at first thought 'the first love' was talking about her relationship with Tim instead of Bruce before I realized that iJulie Madison was one of the targets. Then in Leviathan Strikes the other students, who don't even know Batgirl exists, immediately jump to the conclusion that she is Batman's daughter.

    There was something about her independant of the costume that made people think she was really close, like family close, to Batman. I find that really interesting.
    Maybe it is because they interact more like a modern father and daughter than any of the other relationships. Barbara has a good relationship with a father she respects, Cass has obvious issues with father figures and looks at Bruce more as what she aspires to become than anything else, Damian has an understandably formal relationship with Bruce, Tim is usually respectful as well. Stephanie alternates between wanting to please him, frustration at not being able to do things she thinks she is ready for but Bruce does not and occasional teasing and even the famous slap.Also they both have blue eyes that might look more alike when framed by a cowl and you could not tell from the page but perhaps Gotham accents if they are easy to spot or maybe she can do 'The Voice'.

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