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  1. #3286
    Flashbang Fanatic rifleman101's Avatar
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    This thread rules. Gabzilla also.
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  2. #3287
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    It seems to me that if Steph were introduced into the nu52 Batman would accept her rather quickly. He's gone through 4 Robins in 5 years, accepted Tim after that Penguin stupidity, and never once expressed any disapproval for Babs dispite her lack of skills, training, or intelligence, as opposed to her taking some time to get his approval in the earlier continuities even when she was more skilled and smarter than she is now. Assuming Steph started out with the same skills and intelligence she had even in the 90s there doesn't seem to be any reason or precedent for him telling her "Shelve it. Forget it." in this universe.

  3. #3288
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Her time as Robin was the, for me, height of Batdick, too. He went off on her for punching Zsasz in the nose and not being at risk of killing him unless the situation had been very different? C'mon. But, then, this was Gabrych, who also had Batman as the kind of guy who calls someone a ghetto stereotype and threatens and intimidates a dead woman's roommate for being, how dare she, her roommate who told her a drug was too risky but didn't wrestle it out of her hands when she got high at a club.

    Steph was better as Batgirl and she was treated better. The point of her as Robin seemed to be to make her the fall girl for a story to happen.

  4. #3289
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    Her time as Robin was the, for me, height of Batdick, too. He went off on her for punching Zsasz in the nose and not being at risk of killing him unless the situation had been very different? C'mon. But, then, this was Gabrych, who also had Batman as the kind of guy who calls someone a ghetto stereotype and threatens and intimidates a dead woman's roommate for being, how dare she, her roommate who told her a drug was too risky but didn't wrestle it out of her hands when she got high at a club.

    Steph was better as Batgirl and she was treated better. The point of her as Robin seemed to be to make her the fall girl for a story to happen.
    The problem with the Zsaz situation was that 1, what Batman says how no basis in actual biology, and 2, Steph as a character had grown past that long before. She accepted the no-killing rule in her debut appearenc, accepted that there was value even in to the lives of everyone, including homocidal maniacs, in Robin 35, and during the cataclysm when confronted with an alternate vigilante ideology in Huntress chose that Batman ideology instead. Having her argue with Batman over Zsaz's life was a big step backwards.

    The best Steph as Robin issues were the one where she teamed with Cass and the Robin 101 alternate reality.

  5. #3290
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    The problem with the Zsaz situation was that 1, what Batman says how no basis in actual biology, and 2, Steph as a character had grown past that long before. She accepted the no-killing rule in her debut appearenc, accepted that there was value even in to the lives of everyone, including homocidal maniacs, in Robin 35, and during the cataclysm when confronted with an alternate vigilante ideology in Huntress chose that Batman ideology instead. Having her argue with Batman over Zsaz's life was a big step backwards.

    The best Steph as Robin issues were the one where she teamed with Cass and the Robin 101 alternate reality.
    Plus there was no way to see what he thinks he sees a possibility for in different circumstances from the position and situation he's in. And it's a dumb piece of criticism usually only tossed out for, say, Huntress, and never Dick or Tim or Orpheus, the gang-leading superhero in disguise.

  6. #3291
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    Plus there was no way to see what he thinks he sees a possibility for in different circumstances from the position and situation he's in. And it's a dumb piece of criticism usually only tossed out for, say, Huntress, and never Dick or Tim or Orpheus, the gang-leading superhero in disguise.
    Just from Batman's perspective it doesn't bother me. He does that. It even makes sense if you accept that in DC human bilogy is really, really different than in the real world. Of course the fact that it makes no sense in a real world context is a sign that it is badly contrived.

    The issue as a whole makes Steph out to be a much darker character than she was in any other issue before or since, which is strange because over in Robin she was if anything a lighter character than ever, I'd say even lighter than she was in her own Batgirl series. At that point in time it was only in Cass' Batgirl that they found the right balance.

    Even still just from that issue of Detective I got the impression that Batman was serious about her being Robin and was overall impressed with her. In Robin it was painfully obvious that he was waiting the smallest excuse to get rid of her even though he enjoyed having her around.

  7. #3292
    Flashbang Fanatic rifleman101's Avatar
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    So why are people forbidden to have anything to do with Steph now? Not just the comic (from what i can tell) but all of DC?
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  8. #3293
    Master of Time and Space Xarcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifleman101 View Post
    So why are people forbidden to have anything to do with Steph now? Not just the comic (from what i can tell) but all of DC?
    According to DC: Steph isn't "iconic" enough. She doesn't have a large enough fanbase for them to bother using her. The would rather use characters they believe will attract more readers (*cough*Babs*cough*) due to being more recognizable.

    According to some Steph fans: DC has a love obsession with Barbara Gordon and can't stand the idea of there having been other characters to use the Batgirl mantle. They don't want to use anyone that will, in whatever way, detract from the "specialness" of Babs.

    There are other ideas floating around as well, such as it being due to sexism, or due to DC hating fun, happy characters.

    In the end, the only things we can be absolutely sure of are that DC does love Babs, and that we will not be seeing Steph or Cass for a long time, if ever.
    I'm still waiting for a new Wonder Twins ongoing. Let's make it happen, DC.

  9. #3294
    Senior Member godisawesome's Avatar
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    Some of us have also postulated the theory that DC editorial just has no idea what to do with the Batgirl property:

    They have Alan Moore cripple and humiliate Barbara Gordon in the Killing Joke-

    They end Cassandra Cain's series while it still has good sales and butcher her character for an editorially mandated turn to the dark side-

    They refuse to truly rehabilitate the character after bringing her back to the light-

    They kick Cassandra back into limbo and replace her with Stephanie-

    Once Stephanie has found her footing and started a strong run as Batgirl and Cassandra has returned under Grant Morrison and starred in a popular miniseries, they immediately place an embargo on them and shuffle them out-

    Finally, they fire cooperative and fan-loved Gail Simone when she won't do what editorial tells her.

    The problem isn't with Babs, Steph, or Cass individually. There is no one who will champion Batgirl in DC editorial against editorial story decisions that may not make any sense.
    “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal."

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  10. #3295
    You Can't Dye My Hair GoldStarz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Some of us have also postulated the theory that DC editorial just has no idea what to do with the Batgirl property:

    They have Alan Moore cripple and humiliate Barbara Gordon in the Killing Joke-

    They end Cassandra Cain's series while it still has good sales and butcher her character for an editorially mandated turn to the dark side-

    They refuse to truly rehabilitate the character after bringing her back to the light-

    They kick Cassandra back into limbo and replace her with Stephanie-

    Once Stephanie has found her footing and started a strong run as Batgirl and Cassandra has returned under Grant Morrison and starred in a popular miniseries, they immediately place an embargo on them and shuffle them out-

    Finally, they fire cooperative and fan-loved Gail Simone when she won't do what editorial tells her.

    The problem isn't with Babs, Steph, or Cass individually. There is no one who will champion Batgirl in DC editorial against editorial story decisions that may not make any sense.
    Then of course there's Bleeding Cool's belief that they're holding out on us so that a Spoiler title will be even more successful than it would've been without the Stephanie fans being shaken up like they were.


    I've even seen a ridiculous (as admitted by the author) theory that DC is try to start an all out fan war by dividing the Cass and Steph fans, then splitting the Barbara Gordon fan base into Oracle and Batgirl sects and pitting them all against each other and finishing off by screwing the Babsbat fans by removing Simone from the title.

  11. #3296
    Flashbang Fanatic rifleman101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldStarz View Post
    I've even seen a ridiculous (as admitted by the author) theory that DC is try to start an all out fan war by dividing the Cass and Steph fans, then splitting the Barbara Gordon fan base into Oracle and Batgirl sects and pitting them all against each other and finishing off by screwing the Babsbat fans by removing Simone from the title.
    That wouldn't work. Too many people would love to see all three of them sharing a comic. Myself included.

    (Though to be honest, i'm only really here in DC for Step, Cass, and Hawkgirl. Does Hawkgirl have a appreciation thread? Must find smutty fanfiction...)
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  12. #3297
    You Can't Dye My Hair GoldStarz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifleman101 View Post
    That wouldn't work. Too many people would love to see all three of them sharing a comic. Myself included.

    (Though to be honest, i'm only really here in DC for Step, Cass, and Hawkgirl. Does Hawkgirl have a appreciation thread? Must find smutty fanfiction...)
    You'd be surprised, parts of the fandom have been at each others necks lately and Babsbat has brought in a crowd that I'm not to happy sharing a forum with. I haven't even heard from the people who are predominantly Cass supporters, you'd think the Cass Cain fanbase had been fully absorbed. If for some bizarre reason that was DC's motive, they've done a pretty good job at it.

  13. #3298
    Master of Time and Space Xarcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldStarz View Post
    You'd be surprised, parts of the fandom have been at each others necks lately and Babsbat has brought in a crowd that I'm not to happy sharing a forum with. I haven't even heard from the people who are predominantly Cass supporters, you'd think the Cass Cain fanbase had been fully absorbed. If for some bizarre reason that was DC's motive, they've done a pretty good job at it.
    I think the constant Babs squabbles here are mostly due to two reasons:

    1. DC keeps shoving Babs in our faces and has shown a very clear desire to keep Steph and Cass hidden away in a dark room where no one will ever find them.

    2. There is a certain poster who likes to flaunt the above situation and gets very defensive and accusative if anyone says something even slightly negative about Babs.

    I actually used to like Babs quite a lot from the B:TAS. I also liked Babs as Oracle. I like Babs a lot less now, and that's due entirely to DC's poor handling of the Batgirl characters. If, for example, DC had had Steph give back the Batgirl mantle to Babs when the New 52 started, then don her Spoiler costume (hopefully updated to exclude that horrid mask) and hop into a duo book with Cass, I would've been fine with that. I might have even given Simone's series another issue or two to win me over.

    But no. Instead of that, DC de-aged Babs, stripped away the experience and skills she had as Oracle, and completely banished Steph and Cass from existence. I would have been interested in seeing Oracle become Batgirl again. Unfortunately, nuBabs is not, and seemingly never was, Oracle.

    Anyway, I really don't think DC wanted to splinter the Batgirl fanbases. I think DC's intention in erasing Steph and Cass was to force us all to join the Babs fans as one, large group. Instead, DC just made Steph and Cass fans angry.
    I'm still waiting for a new Wonder Twins ongoing. Let's make it happen, DC.

  14. #3299
    Forever Hooligan Genki Sudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldStarz View Post
    You'd be surprised, parts of the fandom have been at each others necks lately and Babsbat has brought in a crowd that I'm not to happy sharing a forum with. I haven't even heard from the people who are predominantly Cass supporters, you'd think the Cass Cain fanbase had been fully absorbed. If for some bizarre reason that was DC's motive, they've done a pretty good job at it.
    I'm predominately a Cass fan but since she nor Steph is around and have been purposely limbo'd I just mainly lurk this thread and avoid all Babsbat threads combined with DC books I'm getting being canned or just being terrible there's less reason to be around

  15. #3300
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    As stated before, I'm working on a Spoiler Nu52 webcomic series as a co-writer. Nonprofit, of course. DC owns the rights to the characters. We have the first 3 issues plotted already and are starting on the drawing part. We hope to have the first issue out by early 2013. http://spoilercomics.tumblr.com/

    And a twelve part live action webseries about Steph as Batgirl has already started. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3jTp_lijyM

    And there's chickfighter's lighter series. http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/gallery/35412958

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