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  1. #3226
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    I'd say the constantly standing her up and lack of attention to her exacerbated her already present emotional issues.



    True



    Ha oh wow. Admittedly my memory post dixon is rather murky. What was Batman's douchebag test again? I always get a kick out of how over the top jerky bats could be in the 90s.
    This wasn't the 90s. This was like 03. He had Alfred send a message from 'the future' where Gotham was destroyed by one of their friends and Tim had to find out which one would betray them without giving away to anyone what he was doing. It made Tim suspecious of everyone and investigate them all, and the whole point was to prove to Tim that he could be an even better detective.

    And the lack of attention to Ariana definately did not help matters. He repeated that mistake with Steph to similar results. Even then he tried to deny how bad things were, saying that he and Steph were just having a trust problem when the real problem was that a relationship where he could reach her all the time and knew everything about her while she was always in the dark couldn't work, and that he had started to take for granted Steph's earlier acceptance of that state of affairs. I actually don't think Steph's sudden desire to find out his real name had to do with her self esteem improving. It was that he hurt her and she wanted to both get payback and prevent it from happening again, like how she became Spoiler to get revenge on her father and keep him from hurting her and her mother anymore.

  2. #3227
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    This wasn't the 90s. This was like 03. He had Alfred send a message from 'the future' where Gotham was destroyed by one of their friends and Tim had to find out which one would betray them without giving away to anyone what he was doing. It made Tim suspecious of everyone and investigate them all, and the whole point was to prove to Tim that he could be an even better detective.
    Oh wow that is hilarious

    And the lack of attention to Ariana definately did not help matters. He repeated that mistake with Steph to similar results. Even then he tried to deny how bad things were, saying that he and Steph were just having a trust problem when the real problem was that a relationship where he could reach her all the time and knew everything about her while she was always in the dark couldn't work, and that he had started to take for granted Steph's earlier acceptance of that state of affairs.
    True, so much of that later stuff made no sense. Like I get being pissed at Bruce for telling HIS secret, but there were plenty of times where it was clear that Tim wanted to tell her.

    I actually don't think Steph's sudden desire to find out his real name had to do with her self esteem improving. It was that he hurt her and she wanted to both get payback and prevent it from happening again, like how she became Spoiler to get revenge on her father and keep him from hurting her and her mother anymore.
    Man I really need to reread (or maybe not?) the post dixon robin stuff. I can't even remember any significant issues with the Tim/Steph relationship aside from him not being able to tell her who he was.

    And the drama that came from Bruce telling Steph who Tim is was just dumb altogether.

  3. #3228
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    Oh wow that is hilarious



    True, so much of that later stuff made no sense. Like I get being pissed at Bruce for telling HIS secret, but there were plenty of times where it was clear that Tim wanted to tell her.



    Man I really need to reread (or maybe not?) the post dixon robin stuff. I can't even remember any significant issues with the Tim/Steph relationship aside from him not being able to tell her who he was.

    And the drama that came from Bruce telling Steph who Tim is was just dumb altogether.
    There weren't any big problems between them once they patched things up after the bat-el tale. Batman fires Steph, and Tim takes her side. He thinks of quitting, and she talks him out of it. The biggest problem was when after her father 'died' she lied about going home and stayed in a cheap motel for a few weeks. Tim was so stressed out over Batman's test that he didn't care that she lied to him because he thought she was the only thing keeping him sane and he understood why she did it. They'd have stayed rather happy together if she hadn't died.

    I didn't like it very much when Steph started trying to find out his identity and he was being a jerk about it, but I thought it was a logical development. Tim starts out worried about it being fair to Steph, so he goes out of his way to show that he wants to be fair to her, and Steph is so thrilled at having not only the boy wonder for a boyfriend, but someone in her life who actually gives a damn about her, that she's to thrilled to care that there is something fundementally wrong. Her acceptance is so complete and sincere that Tim starts to take it for granted, and gradually starts taking her for granted as well. And when he does that, suddenly Steph is forced into seeing just what is wrong with this picture and starts to finally resent it, while Tim is confused as to why she can't let things be the way they were, so he doesn't even think to say the right things to reassure her, the same things he said before when they started dating. If Steph hadn't gone to such extremes in stalking Star I would have thought it a good story about the problems of relationships between superheroes.

    Tim avoiding Steph because of what Batman did was weird. He knew and acknowledged it wasn't her fault, but acted like he resented her for it anyway. In the long run Bats did them both a favor, allowing them to finally reach the stability they had in the Lewis run. And lord knows he needs the browny points, because the single biggest wrench in their relationship has always and will always be Batman. He's even the reason they didn't get back together after she came back.

  4. #3229
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    There weren't any big problems between them once they patched things up after the bat-el tale. Batman fires Steph, and Tim takes her side. He thinks of quitting, and she talks him out of it. The biggest problem was when after her father 'died' she lied about going home and stayed in a cheap motel for a few weeks. Tim was so stressed out over Batman's test that he didn't care that she lied to him because he thought she was the only thing keeping him sane and he understood why she did it. They'd have stayed rather happy together if she hadn't died.
    Okay cool, for a second there I thought I was looking at the whole thing through nostalgia vision. I think when in character they both work really well together. Even now If Tim got a solo I'd love for steph to pop up, if not romantically then as the wisecracking / humbling ex gf turned good friend.

    I didn't like it very much when Steph started trying to find out his identity and he was being a jerk about it, but I thought it was a logical development. Tim starts out worried about it being fair to Steph, so he goes out of his way to show that he wants to be fair to her, and Steph is so thrilled at having not only the boy wonder for a boyfriend, but someone in her life who actually gives a damn about her, that she's to thrilled to care that there is something fundementally wrong. Her acceptance is so complete and sincere that Tim starts to take it for granted, and gradually starts taking her for granted as well. And when he does that, suddenly Steph is forced into seeing just what is wrong with this picture and starts to finally resent it, while Tim is confused as to why she can't let things be the way they were, so he doesn't even think to say the right things to reassure her, the same things he said before when they started dating. If Steph hadn't gone to such extremes in stalking Star I would have thought it a good story about the problems of relationships between superheroes.
    Was he being a jerk about it because of himself or because of Batman? Like I could maybe understand Tim being a jerk because he's bosses pet like that, but him NOT wanting steph to know is ludicrous imo.

    Tim avoiding Steph because of what Batman did was weird. He knew and acknowledged it wasn't her fault, but acted like he resented her for it anyway. In the long run Bats did them both a favor, allowing them to finally reach the stability they had in the Lewis run. And lord knows he needs the browny points, because the single biggest wrench in their relationship has always and will always be Batman. He's even the reason they didn't get back together after she came back.
    Durings its hey day it was certainly batman, unfortunately now its a much bigger foe, DC editorial. IMO the reason they didn't get back together when she came back was because Tim had been almost completely warped by the various tragedies he'd experienced, starting with Steph's death, then his dad's, then his best friend's, then his OTHER best friend, then his father figure.

    I wish Flashpoint hadn't been looming over RR. Yost had a great handle on both characters, and Nicieza sounds like he would have done things differently had Flashpoint not been on the horizon.

  5. #3230
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    They were sort-of getting back together, getting to know each other again. Then Batman makes Steph do these things that make Tim feel like she's betrayed him, and that pushes them fully apart. All Batman had to do was not get involved and they'd have been dating again. And without Batman the effect Steph usually has on Tim is to humanize him. Like her tirade when Prudence revealed he'd been working with the League of Assasins. Tim needed someine to point out just how far he'd fallen, how far he was from what Tim Drake is supposed to be, and I think that's the moment he finally snapped back to reality after that whole first arc.

    If battle for the cowl wasn't going to come up Dixon's plot was that they'd stay together and then take on the Cluemaster again. As it was even after everything Tim was still in love with her.

    Was Tim being a jerk because of Batman? That's an interesting question. He was trying not to betray Batman's trust. And to some extent Spoiler had become his Robin, so it might be possible that he was subconsciously acting towards her the way Batman would act towards him. He did compare the fear he felt when he teamed with her with the fear he figured Batman felt when they fought together.

  6. #3231
    You Can't Dye My Hair GoldStarz's Avatar
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    SPOILER & BLACK BAT #6
    Written by BRYAN Q. MILLER
    Plotted by GOLD STARTZ
    Art by MAHAMUD ASRAR
    Variant Cover by STANLEY “ARTGERM” LAU
    “Point of Convergence: Queen’s Opening, Part 3”
    After her near-defeat at the hands of Magpie, Flamebird requests to train with Black Bat, who agrees under the current circumstances after finding another Flood vaccine and adminsters it to Flamebird. With the two now working together, they’ll have to stop Clayface’s rampage from blowing Spoiler’s cover as the three have to deal with all-out war in Gotham as they take on the Batman Family, Clayface, and the Calculator and Batman’s rouges over Oracle’s Laptop. In the back-up, Proxy has come back home just in time for Gotham’s newest crisis to start. Can Black Bat and Flamebird get to her before her father or will their work recovering Oracle’s laptop all be in vein?
    48 pgs/Rated T $3.99

  7. #3232
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Spoiler #7

    Spoiler is fighting another band of armed thieves when one manages to get his gun pointed at her back. She is saved when Batgirl jumps on the man's back. Spoiler then throws a brick at another one trying to grab Batgirl from behind, and they trade banter about their needing to do a better job watching their own backs.

    After the fight they retreat to a rooftop, and Spoiler thanks Batgirl for the help, but asks what she's doing out of the city. Batgirl says that she's working a case that started in Gotham, but refuses to elaborate further, and Spoiler realizes that Batgirl doesn't trust her. Batgirl admits that she never heard of Spoiler until that high profile kidnapping incident a month earlier, so she is wary of the younger vigilante. And it is clear that Batman does not approve of her.

    Spoiler says that she may not be in the big leagues like Batman, but this is her town. If something big is going down she demands to know. Batgirl agrees. She says that she was keeping tabs on the GCPD's investigation of a suspected child molester when he vanished, and Batgirl's investigation led her to believe that he had relocated to Gotham Heights. Batgirl takes a photograph of the suspect out of her utility belt to show to Spoiler, who is startled by who she sees.

    "Jim Murray. But he died years ago." Batgirl assures her that he is alive and well, although he goes by Andrew now, and asks if she knows him. Spoiler responds mechanically, saying that she is familiar with Murray's work. She says that she wants to help Batgirl with this case, and that she has an avenue of investigation she wants to check out. They agree to meet the same time the next night, but as Spoiler swings away Batgirl thinks to herself that she is still unsure about the younger vigilante. Spoiler reminds her too much of villains like Knightfall, and she seems to have as dark a past if her reaction to the photograph of Murray is any indication.

    The next day, Stephanie pays a visit to her father in Blackgate Prison. Cluemaster asks if she plans on beating him up, but she ignores the question and cuts to the chase. "Where is Jim Murray?" Cluemaster is surprised, but Steph says to cut the act, that she knows he helped Murray fake his death six years earlier. Murray was not smart enough to pull it off on his own.

    Cluemaster smiles and tells Steph to say what she's really thinking. Steph glares and says that he knew what Murray was when he made him her baby-sitter. It's the only reason he'd help Murray after what he did to her. Cluemaster says that he was worried Steph would turn into a wimp like her mother, and he wanted Murray to help toughen her up. Steph angrily grabs him by the shirt and pulls him close. Cluemaster says that it worked better than he'd hoped, then taunts Steph. "Does it sting, to know just how much of what you are, the good Spoiler does, is because of me? I made you into this figure of vengeance, Stephanie. It's all me."

    Steph drops Cluemaster and yells that he's wrong. "I am who I am because that's how I choose to be! You had no say! Not you, and certainly not Jim Murray!" She raises a clenched fist, and then unclenches it. "And sorry to disappoint you, but I was never a 'figure of vengeance.' You've got your vigilantes mixed up." She asks once again where Jim Murray is.

    That night, Spoiler tells Batgirl that she has several locations their suspect might be at. Batgirl replies that that is good, because there have been reports of a young girl going missing in the area, and she thinks Murray is behind it. Spoiler is visibly shaken by the news, and Batgirl asks if she is ok. Spoiler doesn't answer, insisting that they have to move now.

    As they travel, Spoiler explains how Murray had three friends whose houses he could stay at until the heat cooled off, which is how he escaped arrest in the past, but if he was being active again it meant he must be staying at the house he owned himself under a pseudonym. Batgirl thinks to herself that this is too personal for Spoiler-much like it would be for Batgirl herself if went up against the Joker again-and that she'll have to keep an eye on her to keep her in line when they arrive.

    They arrive at their address and knock on the door. When there is no answer Batgirl lets Spoiler kick the door down, thinking to herself it's better the younger vigilante not know how weak her legs still are. They find Murray in the living room with the child tied up. He freezes at the sight of them. Spoiler angrily calls him Jim, and he panics and runs out the back.

    Spoiler yells at Batgirl to go after Murray, and the older vigilante complies. Spoiler stays behind to free to make sure the child is all right. Physically she is unharmed, but she is still frightened, and the sight of Spoiler does nothing to alleviate her panic. So Spoiler pulls her mask off to show the child that she's a normal person like her and not a monster. She finishes untying the child and hugs her, telling her everything will be ok, that the bad man won't her her anymore. Spoiler flashes back to when she was eleven, when Jim Murray attacked her and she fought him off by biting his nose before running away. "He won't hurt any little girls anymore."

    Later, after Spoiler and Batgirl watch the police take Murray away and the girl back to her parents, Batgirl says that she was surprised that Spoiler gave her point in taking down Murray. "I know the two of you have a...history." Spoiler says all she cared about was making sure Jim Murray couldn't hurt anyone. She also reveals that she knows that Batgirl had been following her since they met the day before, and when Batgirl asks how she knows that, Spoiler answers "You're a bat."

    Since Batgirl knows who she is, Spoiler takes off her mask and looks at it. "I guess I won't be needing this anymore." Batgirl asks if that means she plans on giving up crime fighting, and Spoiler replies "No. I just need a new mask. Something a little friendlier. I'm not trying to scare anyone. I'm not some figure of vengeance."

    Batgirl agrees. "I've seen too many people who, after one bad day, decide to make the whole city pay for their misery. But hearing what you said to your father, seeing what you did tonight-it's given me hope, hope for Gotham I haven't felt in a long time."

    Spoiler says that if she would let herself be defined by her past, she wouldn't have a future, and Batgirl has a brief flashback to the time she was shot by the Joker before rubbing her back and saying that that is a good lesson. Spoiler asks if anything is wrong, and Batgirl smiles and says no. "I'm just thinking that it might be worth coming to the suburbs more often. The atmosphere is better out here. It helps me clear my head." Spoiler smiles as well.

    "Cool. I love team-ups."

  8. #3233

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    Batgirl and Batwoman by Cameron Stewart

    Jean Grey : What makes you such a bitch, Emma?
    Emma Frost : Breeding, darling. Top class breeding.

  9. #3234
    The Slender Man vampiric_cannibal's Avatar
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    Now I can sleep happy tonight.
    I would like to say for the record that this is the FIRST TIME I've withheld dong when someone was so desperately asking for some.
    Brian C Wood

  10. #3235
    Danger Doll in pink! Chickfighter's Avatar
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    Nice picture. I loved the Cameron Stewart art for the Steph adventure in Batman Inc.

    And here now, earlier in the month than usual, is the penultimate issue of the The Further Awesome Adventures of the Unsinkable Stephanie Brown #15 fan fiction script with appearances by almost every character that has been in the series.

    http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/#/d5ks942

    Hope you enjoy!

  11. #3236
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Another thing I noticed, looking back. After the whole "I'd have known you without the mask in a heartbeat" thing, where Tim was terrified to even let Steph see him at school or at Karl Ranck's funeral, she should have figured out who he was during No Man's Land. His face was all over the news for weeks and was even part of the impetus for the reopening of the city. Steph would have to be living under a rock to not have noticed and made the connection. What would Jack Drake's wealthy son, who bears a strong resemblence to her boyfriend, be doing in Gotham when the whole city is closed and a war zone? I don't she ever made the connection, "oh, you're that Tim Drake that was on the news back then. It makes her seem pretty dumb.

  12. #3237
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From Room X View Post
    Batgirl and Batwoman by Cameron Stewart

    Notice who is taking the lead

  13. #3238
    Junior Member jgrifo10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From Room X View Post
    Batgirl and Batwoman by Cameron Stewart

    Really beautiful commission. I really like a lot (because I hope it's mine) :P

  14. #3239
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From Room X View Post
    Batgirl and Batwoman by Cameron Stewart

    Freaking awesome.

  15. #3240
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    There is going to be a full fledged fan-made comic, fully illustrated, of Steph as the Spoiler in the Nu52. I'm serving as a co-writer. The website is http://spoilercomics.tumblr.com/

    We still need people on the art side of things, so if any of you are interested in contributing contact the person in charge of the project at spoilercomics@yahoo.com

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