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  1. #3211
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxpower00044 View Post
    What are some good Steph as Batgirl trades?
    The Lesson, by default. It's the biggest, has a nice balance of one-shots stories and heavier story arcs, and most importantly, it's the only one that hasn't gone completely out of print .

  2. #3212
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    When Chuck Dixon was in charge of Stephanie she was a suitable replacement for Ariana Dzerchenko, because Tim always seemed more comfortable being Robin.

    I remember an issue way back in the early days of Chuck's where he gets roughed up by punks at a movie he takes Ari to. He muses that he could take them all without breaking a sweat but has to get hit because he can't reveal who he is to Ari. He finds them later on and beats the hell out of them but that inability to act paved the way for Tim to give up Ari because of the stricture she inadvertently put on his life.

    But don't get me started on the whole Leslie Thompkins letting her die but then it's fixed because Superboy Prime punched it better.

  3. #3213
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    He finds them later on and beats the hell out of them but that inability to act paved the way for Tim to give up Ari because of the stricture she inadvertently put on his life.
    To be fair, Steph caused him similar problems because he couldn't open up to her when a case was very close to his Tim Drake's identity, which caused strains in their relationship a few times.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    But don't get me started on the whole Leslie Thompkins letting her die but then it's fixed because Superboy Prime punched it better.
    That's... not what happened. Stephanie's survival was a retcon, not a consequence of Superboy Prime's angry pummelling of reality. I think you're confusing two Even Robins.

  4. #3214

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post

    But don't get me started on the whole Leslie Thompkins letting her die but then it's fixed because Superboy Prime punched it better.
    Hmmm? Steph never had any Superboy Prime retcons. That was Jason. Leslie lied to Batman, telling him that she had indeed "let" Steph die in order to prove a point to him. But it was eventually revealed that she simply took Steph to Africa for a year. I mean the whole notion of someone like Leslie - even if you were to ignore that shes a doctor - would willingly just let someone die instead of saving them is ridiculous. The writers and editors of that shitty War Crimes arc sure took their idiot pills when they came up with that idea. Im willing to let War Games itself slide slightly off the hook, but War Crimes is a blight on comics that was rightfully ret-conned away.

    Edit. Lol at typing on tablets :< beaten
    ಠ_ಠ

  5. #3215
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    When Chuck Dixon was in charge of Stephanie she was a suitable replacement for Ariana Dzerchenko, because Tim always seemed more comfortable being Robin.

    I remember an issue way back in the early days of Chuck's where he gets roughed up by punks at a movie he takes Ari to. He muses that he could take them all without breaking a sweat but has to get hit because he can't reveal who he is to Ari. He finds them later on and beats the hell out of them but that inability to act paved the way for Tim to give up Ari because of the stricture she inadvertently put on his life.

    But don't get me started on the whole Leslie Thompkins letting her die but then it's fixed because Superboy Prime punched it better.
    I don't think that's what made Tim choose Steph over Ari. It's probably more about scenes like this:





    And then remember that time when Tim's girlfriend got jealous of Steph and proceeded to dye her hair blond because she thought he preferred blond girls? Yeah.


  6. #3216
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Its kind of funny how crazy Tim's double life made Arianna.

  7. #3217
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Tim's relationship with Ariana pretty much ended the moment she tried to sleep with him. Not only was she sent away and Tim forbidden from seeing her literally on pain of death, but between that and the hair color changing thing she was shown to be carrying a lot of baggage she wasn't coping with. Steph had even more baggage, but she dealt with them much better than Ariana. Yeah they sort of got back together 15 issues later, but it was only to break it off for good two issues after that.

    The main difference between Ariana knowing Tim but not Robin, and Steph knowing Robin but not Tim, is that the former still allowed both sides to be equals in the relationship while the latter gave all of the power to Tim. So Steph had it worse than Ariana in that regard before Batman spilled the beans.

  8. #3218
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    Eh, I think it was mainly that at that point in time Tim was far more invested in Robin than he was in Tim, and as a result he came off not invested in their relationship (or in anything at all relating to Tim Drake).

    I don't think it has to do much with power, just that at the time Tim Drake was kind of a zombie while Robin was the only time he was really alive.

  9. #3219
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    Eh, I think it was mainly that at that point in time Tim was far more invested in Robin than he was in Tim, and as a result he came off not invested in their relationship (or in anything at all relating to Tim Drake).

    I don't think it has to do much with power, just that at the time Tim Drake was kind of a zombie while Robin was the only time he was really alive.
    The 'power' betwwen the two sides of the relationship as I see it isn't a factor with Ariana. Only with Steph, because she was the one who actually lacked power relative to Tim. You're right that he became more invested in being Robin than Tim Drake at the time, but to a large extent I feel that had to do with things going south with Ariana and other parts of his civilian life and not just that he liked being Robin.

    And to a huge extent I don't think Tim was being honest with himself about just how bad things were. His girlfriend just tried to seduce out of severe emotional distress, and then her uncle literally tried to kill him and wouldn't let them see each other anymore. And here Tim is going on about how he's more afraid of emotional commitment than getting shot at, and never even considered that it might have something to do with the fact that he can defend himself when thugs try to kill him but not when Uncle Vari does it. He ran away from his problems so he could deny just how bad they were and pretend like they could be fixed overnight, like he did when Bruce told Steph his secret ID.

  10. #3220
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    And to a huge extent I don't think Tim was being honest with himself about just how bad things were. His girlfriend just tried to seduce out of severe emotional distress, and then her uncle literally tried to kill him and wouldn't let them see each other anymore. And here Tim is going on about how he's more afraid of emotional commitment than getting shot at, and never even considered that it might have something to do with the fact that he can defend himself when thugs try to kill him but not when Uncle Vari does it. He ran away from his problems so he could deny just how bad they were and pretend like they could be fixed overnight, like he did when Bruce told Steph his secret ID.
    Tim has always been the type of person who'd rather escape from his problems than tackle it head-on. That's how he became Robin in the first place (parents neglecting him and everything).

  11. #3221
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aprillis View Post
    Tim has always been the type of person who'd rather escape from his problems than tackle it head-on. That's how he became Robin in the first place (parents neglecting him and everything).
    And when the situation became reversed, when he was happy with Steph and at home and Bruce was being a bigger jerk than before, Tim's reaction was to quit being Robin again and again. Then after Search for a Hero and Battle for the Cowl, instead of dealing with the perceived betrayals of Dick and Steph he goes all angsty and runs around the world on an idiot's quest. He's pretty consistent.

  12. #3222
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    The 'power' betwwen the two sides of the relationship as I see it isn't a factor with Ariana. Only with Steph, because she was the one who actually lacked power relative to Tim. You're right that he became more invested in being Robin than Tim Drake at the time, but to a large extent I feel that had to do with things going south with Ariana and other parts of his civilian life and not just that he liked being Robin.
    Well most of the problems in his civilian life were a direct result of him being robin, something that wouldn't ever go away. I agree that Tim avoided those problems, but I think the main reason he did that is had he actually attempted to deal with them he'd come to the conclusion that the only solution was ending it with Arianna, which wasn't something he wanted to acknowledge at that point.

    And to a huge extent I don't think Tim was being honest with himself about just how bad things were. His girlfriend just tried to seduce out of severe emotional distress, and then her uncle literally tried to kill him and wouldn't let them see each other anymore. And here Tim is going on about how he's more afraid of emotional commitment than getting shot at, and never even considered that it might have something to do with the fact that he can defend himself when thugs try to kill him but not when Uncle Vari does it. He ran away from his problems so he could deny just how bad they were and pretend like they could be fixed overnight, like he did when Bruce told Steph his secret ID.
    I don't think he was actually afraid of the fact taht he wouldn't be able to defend himself from Ari's uncle. He's not happy about it, but its not like he has any real issues taking a punch. I'd say part of the reason he shrugged of Vari's death threat is that he knew there wasn't any real threat.

    And the seduction thing he did deal with, to some extent. Its not like he got scared and ran off. He was rather naive though in thinking that it was dealt with when there were still underlying issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    And when the situation became reversed, when he was happy with Steph and at home and Bruce was being a bigger jerk than before, Tim's reaction was to quit being Robin again and again. Then after Search for a Hero and Battle for the Cowl, instead of dealing with the perceived betrayals of Dick and Steph he goes all angsty and runs around the world on an idiot's quest. He's pretty consistent.
    When did he quit being robin, aside from when his dad made him?

    And yeah, there's really nothing good about the first arc of Red Robin. The whole search for bruce thing wasn't bad, but its pretty clear there was little (if any) communication between morrison and yost. I'd be curious to know if there was any editorial interference there, because you could tell that the Tim Yost wanted to write was the one he wrote in his second arc.

  13. #3223
    You Can't Dye My Hair GoldStarz's Avatar
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    Happy election day everyone!

    ~VOTE FOR STEPH~

  14. #3224
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    Well most of the problems in his civilian life were a direct result of him being robin, something that wouldn't ever go away. I agree that Tim avoided those problems, but I think the main reason he did that is had he actually attempted to deal with them he'd come to the conclusion that the only solution was ending it with Arianna, which wasn't something he wanted to acknowledge at that point.



    I don't think he was actually afraid of the fact taht he wouldn't be able to defend himself from Ari's uncle. He's not happy about it, but its not like he has any real issues taking a punch. I'd say part of the reason he shrugged of Vari's death threat is that he knew there wasn't any real threat.

    And the seduction thing he did deal with, to some extent. Its not like he got scared and ran off. He was rather naive though in thinking that it was dealt with when there were still underlying issues.



    When did he quit being robin, aside from when his dad made him?

    And yeah, there's really nothing good about the first arc of Red Robin. The whole search for bruce thing wasn't bad, but its pretty clear there was little (if any) communication between morrison and yost. I'd be curious to know if there was any editorial interference there, because you could tell that the Tim Yost wanted to write was the one he wrote in his second arc.
    Most of Ariana's big problems had nothing to do with his being Robin. The constantly standing her up was comparatively minor compared to stuff like the causes of her emotional issues. And things like the shooting of Karl Ranc had nothing to do with his being Robin.

    The point is, rather than acknowledge just how bad things were, he'd dress up and fight crime so he could tell himself that Robin was the cause of everything so he'd have an excuse for why things were going south that were completely out of his control.

    Tim seriously thought of quitting during Bruce Wayne Murderer. Then did quit after Batman's douchebag test. Then quit again after he felt guilty for killing Johnny Warlock, then quit again because his father made him. Over a ten issue period he quit 3 times, once under Lewis and twice under Willingham. And the only reason the first two times weren't permanent is because both times a talk with Steph made him go back to Batman.

  15. #3225
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Most of Ariana's big problems had nothing to do with his being Robin. The constantly standing her up was comparatively minor compared to stuff like the causes of her emotional issues. And things like the shooting of Karl Ranc had nothing to do with his being Robin.
    I'd say the constantly standing her up and lack of attention to her exacerbated her already present emotional issues.

    The point is, rather than acknowledge just how bad things were, he'd dress up and fight crime so he could tell himself that Robin was the cause of everything so he'd have an excuse for why things were going south that were completely out of his control.
    True

    Tim seriously thought of quitting during Bruce Wayne Murderer. Then did quit after Batman's douchebag test. Then quit again after he felt guilty for killing Johnny Warlock, then quit again because his father made him. Over a ten issue period he quit 3 times, once under Lewis and twice under Willingham. And the only reason the first two times weren't permanent is because both times a talk with Steph made him go back to Batman.
    Ha oh wow. Admittedly my memory post dixon is rather murky. What was Batman's douchebag test again? I always get a kick out of how over the top jerky bats could be in the 90s.

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