Did Evil Win with Mattie Franklin's Death?

[Meehaul]

The other tread got me thinking...Mattie was killed as a sacrifice to resurrect Kraven. Was that an instance of evil winning? Or do we have to take the longer view and recall that the Familia Kraven was (sort of) defeated? And, was that a death in vain, as she didn't even die in the midst of a fight, but was drugged and offered up as a sacrifice, so it's not even a "heroic" sort of death? And was her death a bigger "win" for evil that Mephisto's?

[CyberHubbs]

Mattie totally got screwed, yeah. But that was sort of the point.

[CyberHubbs]

I'd say evil won the battle, but not the war.

[Meehaul]

I'd say evil won the battle, but not the war.

Was her death "noble"? Like, say, the Torch's?

[ngroove]

The other tread got me thinking...Mattie was killed as a sacrifice to resurrect Kraven. Was that an instance of evil winning? Or do we have to take the longer view and recall that the Familia Kraven was (sort of) defeated? And, was that a death in vain, as she didn't even die in the midst of a fight, but was drugged and offered up as a sacrifice, so it's not even a "heroic" sort of death? And was her death a bigger "win" for evil that Mephisto's?

Da*n right Mattie Franklin's death was in vain! And for someone no one really gives a fig about ( Grim Hunter)? Not to mention, didn't even get it right; a were-something? Bad trade...

Way I see it, Marvel, Spider-Man team just wanted to kill someone(s) to make the story, a story, like they did on Oskana, Billy Connors, Madame Web, Hobgoblin(?), and Marla Madison-Jameson.

And their choice of Mattie, as I see it; basically, a case, where just because she's been in limbo, been forgotten from her glory days as Spider-Woman, so long, I assume they felt no one would have cared; if they bring her back in the picture, only to become a lamb for the slaughter. Same would apply to Phil Urich; only they have murdered his integrity, characterization, instead.

[CyberHubbs]

Gods, no. She got straight-up murdered.

[CyberHubbs]

Phil already went crazy long before he became the new Hobgoblin.

[WillBest]

Who is Mattie Franklin? I kid.... but on the whole I consider it a good thing for there to be less spider-women. If Drew would have made an appearance they might as well called it the Amazing Spider-Harem.

If by didn't win the war, you mean they didn't get spider-man, or get the spider-seer then yes. The Hunters clearly came out ahead of the Spider-peeps on this one, and there will be more confrontations.

Her death wasn't entirely senseless to the bad guys. They were doing a practice run for the real important one.

[Meehaul]

Who is Mattie Franklin? I kid.... but on the whole I consider it a good thing for there to be less spider-women. If Drew would have made an appearance they might as well called it the Amazing Spider-Harem.

If by didn't win the war, you mean they didn't get spider-man, or get the spider-seer then yes. The Hunters clearly came out ahead of the Spider-peeps on this one, and there will be more confrontations.

Her death wasn't entirely senseless to the bad guys. They were doing a practice run for the real important one.

So, no worries about evil, then?

[SuperCooper]

Mattie was killed to resurrect Vlad, who was later killed by Kraven.

So yeah, it was kind of a horrible death. And in the short term, while you could debate the validity and subjectivity of the word, evil did win.

[Meehaul]

Mattie was killed to resurrect Vlad, who was later killed by Kraven.

So yeah, it was kind of a horrible death. And in the short term, while you could debate the validity and subjectivity of the word, evil did win.

So was her death pointless?

[WillBest]

So, no worries about evil, then?

lol... well in my mind, I would much rather have Kraven alive and mattie dead than the other way around. Because for my entertainment sake I am going to be much more interested in Spider-man v. Kraven, than whatever half-@#$, partial development of mattie against a B/C-list villian might show up at some indeterminate period in the future.

However, in terms of the marvel universe, I don't think there is any doubt that evil won, and it won pretty big too.

[SuperCooper]

So was her death pointless?

I could give a wishywashy answer, but yes, her death seems pretty pointless, unless there's some behind the scenes endgame at play.

[Meehaul]

lol... well in my mind, I would much rather have Kraven alive and mattie dead than the other way around. Because for my entertainment sake I am going to be much more interested in Spider-man v. Kraven, than whatever half-@#$, partial development of mattie against a B/C-list villian might show up at some indeterminate period in the future.

However, in terms of the marvel universe, I don't think there is any doubt that evil won, and it won pretty big too.

haha Entertainment over all!

[Xenon]

The other tread got me thinking...Mattie was killed as a sacrifice to resurrect Kraven. Was that an instance of evil winning? Or do we have to take the longer view and recall that the Familia Kraven was (sort of) defeated? And, was that a death in vain, as she didn't even die in the midst of a fight, but was drugged and offered up as a sacrifice, so it's not even a "heroic" sort of death? And was her death a bigger "win" for evil that Mephisto's?

Evil has to win battles to stay relevant. Sometimes they have to succeed in resurrecting their master, killing their target, or getting rich. It's a necessity to maintain suspense.

But how it's presented is also important, and I think it's important that at least most of the time there's actually a BATTLE that they win, not that they're simply given what they want. Spider-Man (when he finds out), has to try to save mattie. Has to try to recover the stolen jewels, has to halt the resurrection. He doesn't have to SUCCEED every time, nor should he always, but he has to try.

But I haven't gotten to Grim Hunt yet, so I can't talk about it directly. I will say that I think it's not as big of a win as Mephisto, because ultimately they were beaten. They won their battle and lost their war. Mephisto won his war without any sort of fight.