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  1. #421
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Dogg View Post
    I hate the fact that people keep saying "They should be more on a street level Avengers team." If that's the case, then so does Cap and Hawkeye. As I've said many times before, if they're heroes and have done heroic things in their stories, then it doesn't matter if they're on the streets, in space, fighting in a volcano, etc. It doesn't matter. It's fantasy and there are going to be some things that doesn't make sense in the real world and it shouldn't require you to think hard about it either. Wolverine has had more than his fair share of heroic adventures outside of the "street" element. Spider-Man has had more heroic adventures whether it was on the streets or beyond than any Marvel superhero, even more so than most, if not all of the Avengers. So to say that they just belong on a street team is sort of a slap in the face of the writers who had done excellent jobs taking them beyond that element.

    They've been Avengers for almost a decade now and it has turned out fine in my opinion. Sure, there wasn't many stories centered around them individually, but they've had their moments while serving.
    The "too street" arguement definately does not apply to Wolverine and Spider-Man.

    They have two of the biggest resumes in marvel, and frankly all of comics. They have literally dine everything... there's no one they haven't fought and no one they haven't teamed up with. Place the two in ANY situation, and they can say "been there done that."

    Cap, Iron Man, and Thor may have comparable resumes... but Logan and Peter blows everyone else's away.

  2. #422
    Your Hero's Favorite Hero Jay Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The "too street" arguement definately does not apply to Wolverine and Spider-Man.

    They have two of the biggest resumes in marvel, and frankly all of comics. They have literally dine everything... there's no one they haven't fought and no one they haven't teamed up with. Place the two in ANY situation, and they can say "been there done that."

    Cap, Iron Man, and Thor may have comparable resumes... but Logan and Peter blows everyone else's away.
    Thank you! I agree 100%. I don't understand people's arguments against it. If they're no longer Avengers, I'm fine with it because I will continue to like them regardless, but to say they don't belong because they're not "big guns" all while endorsing Cap, Hawkeye, and Black Panther is ridiculous.
    Last edited by Jay Dogg; 08-06-2012 at 07:46 AM.

  3. #423
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Dogg View Post
    Thank you! I agree 100%. I don't understand people's arguments against it. If they're no longer Avengers, I'm fine with it because I will continue to like them regardless, but to say they don't belong because they're not "big guns" is ridiculous all while endorsing Cap, Hawkeye, and Black Panther is ridiculous.
    Stark even pointed that out once. When the Mighty Avengers were dealing with Symbiotes and he was found out that Wolverine at one time had one (and of course so was Peter). Stark even commented something like: "what hasn't he done."

    Even now when they're dealing with Phoenix, if they do their homework they can find out that Logan was a host of the Phoenix as well

    These guys have done EVERYTHING. They're like the marvel equivalent of duck tape... you can use them anywhere and everywhere. And they work.

  4. #424
    Elder Member celticguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Dogg View Post
    Thank you! I agree 100%. I don't understand people's arguments against it. If they're no longer Avengers, I'm fine with it because I will continue to like them regardless, but to say they don't belong because they're not "big guns" is ridiculous all while endorsing Cap, Hawkeye, and Black Panther is ridiculous.
    I agree as well and they have unique power sets as well. Well more Spidey than Logan but still they are not plentiful. They have fighting cosmic or major foes for decades.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The "too street" arguement definately does not apply to Wolverine and Spider-Man.

    They have two of the biggest resumes in marvel, and frankly all of comics. They have literally dine everything... there's no one they haven't fought and no one they haven't teamed up with. Place the two in ANY situation, and they can say "been there done that."

    Cap, Iron Man, and Thor may have comparable resumes... but Logan and Peter blows everyone else's away.
    And- unlike the other heroes- Spidey and Logan have a far more VARIED experience than those heroes. Spidey and Wolvie have experience fighting in the gutters and down to Earth problems like drug dealers or gun runners. But they've also met Gods, faced off against cosmic beings like the Stranger or the Adversary, traveled through time and space and even other dimensions. And often without the benefit of doing so on a team. Someone like Thor or Iron Man are rarely going to fight threats outside their wheelhouse, but Spidey and Wolvie face off against all manner of threats on a regular basis.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirlwind Dinamo View Post
    J
    Personally I think he almost killed the franchise and soiled many of the teams classic core characters, leaving them ruined beyond repair. There is an Avengers the world knows, Classic Avengers stories in the toons, a classic look and feel of real authentic Avengers comics, its classic look in the Favreau, Branagh, Joss Whedon movies now seen around the world by millions and millions of new fans.
    None of which existed when he began writing.

    And that "classic" type had existed for decades before Bendis came on board, and didn't get the same level of interest that his revamping did.

    I'm not against shaking things up when an older Avengers comic is getting a little stagnant but I do not believe in shaking things up just for the sake of it and I do not believe the Bendisverse Avengers did a positive contribution.
    Right. Bendis shook things up when they got stagnant. So why is that a problem then?

    Overall I feel he had a negative contribution to the books and his overall work will NOT stand the test of time, people will continue going back to more classic works and classic TPB collections like the Kree/Skrull War with Roy and other artists, Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch's run on Ultimates, Stan Lee and Jack Kirbys collections, Kurt Busiek’s classic run with the Avengers facing Kang, other classic stories featuring single members like the Simonson Thor and JMS Thor and classic Cap and Ironman books and trades/graphic novels like Busiek/Ross 'Marvels' will sell again and again, even strange newbie groups like Avengers Academy may become classic TPB collections.
    Or that's just wishful thinking in order to hopefully diminish a run from someone you don't like and has no bearing in reality.

    Sorry, but I don't buy the "Silent Majority" argument. If people wanted it, we'd see it by now. It's been almost a decade.

    However I believe Bendis Avengers will not stand the test of time, in another few years nobody will want to read a weird Bendis team with Rulk, Sentry, Venom, Thing, Norman Goblin Osborn in an IronPatriot suit, SpiderWoman etc BMB's Avengers only really ever pleased his own fans, books already esoteric and what once was edgy and gritty now just an act of anachronistic behavior, his TPBs with Disassembled, Siege, House of Bendis, Secret Invasion etc are already reduced to clear and cast into the dreaded best buy bin in bookshops across the states and the world. While Classic comics like Ultimates, the Kree/Skrull War etc will continue selling again and again every year
    Or this is once again just wishful thinking, and an attempt to diminish the accomplishments of someone like Bendis' contributions in order to have a "moral" victory rather than try to argue that it hadn't been "financially" successful.

    Seriously, if you want to argue that Bendis' run "Only pleased his fans," then that's proof that he is a very popular and influential writer since the Avengers franchise became Marvel's #1 selling book and expanded exponentially unlike ever before during his tenure.

  7. #427
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    None of which existed when he began writing.

    And that "classic" type had existed for decades before Bendis came on board, and didn't get the same level of interest that his revamping did.



    Right. Bendis shook things up when they got stagnant. So why is that a problem then?



    Or that's just wishful thinking in order to hopefully diminish a run from someone you don't like and has no bearing in reality.

    Sorry, but I don't buy the "Silent Majority" argument. If people wanted it, we'd see it by now. It's been almost a decade.



    Or this is once again just wishful thinking, and an attempt to diminish the accomplishments of someone like Bendis' contributions in order to have a "moral" victory rather than try to argue that it hadn't been "financially" successful.

    Seriously, if you want to argue that Bendis' run "Only pleased his fans," then that's proof that he is a very popular and influential writer since the Avengers franchise became Marvel's #1 selling book and expanded exponentially unlike ever before during his tenure.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Honestly, it seems some of these complaints have come about 8 years too late.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  8. #428
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Double post.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  9. #429
    Comic Fanboy Spidey_Legend's Avatar
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    Spider-Man is one of the greatest superheroes in the Marvel Universe, he earned his place long time ago. He has the power, the experience and the attitude to be in the team.

  10. #430
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_Legend View Post
    Spider-Man is one of the greatest superheroes in the Marvel Universe, he earned his place long time ago. He has the power, the experience and the attitude to be in the team.
    According to Cable, he's supposed to become the greatest hero in the MU.

    I think you can argue he already is (or at least in the running) .... but either way, if Cable is right then there's more to come.

  11. #431
    Comic Fanboy Spidey_Legend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    According to Cable, he's supposed to become the greatest hero in the MU.

    I think you can argue he already is (or at least in the running) .... but either way, if Cable is right then there's more to come.
    Well, you are right but even is not need it Cable's statement to know that. I think some people thinks Spider-Man as an outcast from Amazing Fantasy #15 or arguing only with Bendis' dialogue which usually don't help any character.

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_Legend View Post
    Well, you are right but even is not need it Cable's statement to know that. I think some people thinks Spider-Man as an outcast from Amazing Fantasy #15 or arguing only with Bendis' dialogue which usually don't help any character.
    Or the lame "He doesn't work well with a team" line that's been used to keep him off the Avengers for many years, which runs counter to many of his depictions over the years.

    I mean, I remember a team up story in the early 90's during the "new mansion" era of the Avengers with Sersi and milk white Vision on the East Coast team where Spidey helps the team out to stop Nebula. He acquits himself admirably in the first two parts, showing himself to be a decent team player and a positive influence on the team. Then the last part has him make a single mistake- which was entirely understandable- and get led out the door by Cap who tells Spidey that his talents are probably best suited elsewhere. It seemed like an odd thing to do, especially since the whole story seemed to be setting up just WHY Spidey would be a good fit for the team.

  13. #433
    Comic Fanboy Spidey_Legend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Or the lame "He doesn't work well with a team" line that's been used to keep him off the Avengers for many years, which runs counter to many of his depictions over the years.

    I mean, I remember a team up story in the early 90's during the "new mansion" era of the Avengers with Sersi and milk white Vision on the East Coast team where Spidey helps the team out to stop Nebula. He acquits himself admirably in the first two parts, showing himself to be a decent team player and a positive influence on the team. Then the last part has him make a single mistake- which was entirely understandable- and get led out the door by Cap who tells Spidey that his talents are probably best suited elsewhere. It seemed like an odd thing to do, especially since the whole story seemed to be setting up just WHY Spidey would be a good fit for the team.
    Do you remember those issue so I can check it?

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_Legend View Post
    Do you remember those issue so I can check it?
    Not off the top of my head. It was in the early 300's, around 320 to 330 maybe. The lineup had Cap, Thor, Vision and Sersi, and the arc had them facing off against Nebula and the Stranger. I also know it was drawn by Paul Ryan, if that helps.

  15. #435
    Your Hero's Favorite Hero Jay Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Not off the top of my head. It was in the early 300's, around 320 to 330 maybe. The lineup had Cap, Thor, Vision and Sersi, and the arc had them facing off against Nebula and the Stranger. I also know it was drawn by Paul Ryan, if that helps.
    Issues 314-318. That was one of the few times I couldn't bear reading Cap. Spidey couldn't even crack a joke without Cap breathing down his neck telling him how he's not much of a hero because he doesn't take it seriously. He came off more of a "tight ass" than ever.

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