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  1. #1
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    Default CBR: When Words Collide - Apr 4, 2011

    Tim and Graeme McMillan conclude their two-part discussion about "Legends," "Millennium" and "Invasion!" by asking questions about the lasting legacy of these series and quoting from the sacred book of Steve Englehart.


    Full article here.

  2. #2
    Senior Member bongoes's Avatar
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    "Of course, now we have "Flashpoint" and "Fear Itself" coming our way. And we'll have to wait and see how those fit into the larger scheme of event-comics-throughout-history. But I bet neither one will blow up an entire continent."

    I don't know, Flashpoint may not blow it up, but I wouldn't put it past them to have Aquaman submerge Europe the way it sounds from the solicits.
    Pull List: Action Comics, Green Lantern, GLC, GL: New Guardians, Justice League, The Flash, Batman Inc, Batman, Nightwing, Batman & Robin, Dial H, Animal Man, Frankenstien, Earth-2

  3. #3
    IntrePoop Reverend rev sully's Avatar
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    Cool

    I think out of the three Events mentioned, Legends would get my "Best Of..." vote. For me as a huge fan of the DC Universe & Multiverse, in Legends we see the Fawcett & Charlton characters folded into the DCU tapestry for the first time and really paved the way for the Baron FLASH (Wally could only go so fast & have to eat all the time and sleep hard...that was actually the coolest Flash facts ever but iDigress...) and Giffen/Dematteis/Maguire JUSTICE LEAGUE (bwah ha ha!). That was a special space/time for me & comics. 13 going on 14.

    "Final Crisis" is, as you imply, the poster child for that kind of thing, and that's probably my favorite event book ever.
    Tim...I need to hear this one. Please. Thanks. As much as I want to hear you riff on Morrison "Finally" doing a Crisis, I want to hear more about it's "poster child qualities". I too loved FC but I always felt it got out of its own hand in a way. There are some great parts (especially in hindsight after reading MARVEL BOY for the 1st time this year). And I'll yell it from the Cheap Seats...How Did FC: Legion of 3 Worlds Fit Into FC???...WHO CARES! ^_^ Both were awesome stories.

    I for one HATED the Meta-Gene idea as being way too much like MARVEL's mutants.

    kriya shakti,
    Rev Sully

    PS Gawd Bless "Bloodlines" for Tommy "Hitman" Monnahan...some random Event love. ^_^
    Last edited by rev sully; 04-04-2011 at 03:26 PM. Reason: better!

    "He who knows best knows how little he knows" -Thomas Jefferson

  4. #4
    33408 is the other way ian33407's Avatar
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    ...there is certainly wonderful lessons to take from this Trinity of Events..what always interested me in them was the way they spotlighted unknown or forgotten characters - not always for the good reasons : sometimes just for the purpose of the story, to even end by being sacrified to conclude a story who's going nowhere - that allowed afterwhile some interesting relaunchs...

    SIGH... a PSYCHO PIRATE ongoing, when ?
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  5. #5

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    The interesting thing about Millenium was that it was really the first BLATANT attempt at bringing the ideas of the Qabalah into comics on such a scale. Of course we saw references to it in... oh, Englehart's work and Chris Claremont's work but the idea of the ten emanations is directly from the Qabalah and the explanation given by the Guardians was a play on Aleister Crowley's Naples Arrangement as a theory on the mathematical origins of the universe from a Qabalistic perspective. Very interesting. Of course, it went over most people's heads at the time and even today LOL Just more evidence to my theory that Englehart was to the 70s what Moore was to the 80s even if Millenium was an 80s book, a very similar mark to Moore's Promethea in the 90s

  6. #6
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    The big difference between those cross-over events and today's cross-over events was that back then you could afford to buy all the comics that tie into it. Comics were cheap and you could read everything DC put out with your allowance.
    Trying to do that today would eat up a good chunk of an adult pay check. Reading comics has become a very expensive hobby. But back when these series came out, it was easy to climb on board and enjoy the entire ride.

  7. #7

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    I hadn't even thought for a second about the price issue, but of course it does cost A LOT more to buy all the tie-ins these days. But I make a heck of a lot more money now than I did when I relied on my 5 dollars a week to buy comics when I was 14 or 15, so comics are actually more affordable for me now, proportionately speaking.

    Isn't that true for everyone in our demographic?
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  8. #8
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    I mean, even for comic book mumbo jumbo, this stuff is beyond incomprehensible.

    Get back to me when you've read anything Morrison's written while under the influence the past few years. The final arc on X-Men? Infinite Crisis? Batman RIP? Those were incomprehensible. Englehart's work on Millenium was just sorta... cheesy.

  9. #9

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    Yeah, I should totally look into this Morrison guy. What has he written again?
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  10. #10
    That guy from Puerto Rico Sijo's Avatar
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    What djm72 said. But also:

    I had no idea that the numerical stuff in Millennium came from the Qabalah or any other real source; I thought the writer made it up. And I remember being pissed by it, because, here we have these people who are going to be taught what they need to become the parents of the new Guardians of the Universe, so you expect some true wisdom being shown, and we get... numbers? It just felt to me like it was intentionally unintelligible, because the writer couldn't come up with anything that actually sounded deep.

    Another big failure of that crossover was that it portended that the New Guardians would be up and running in 1000 years... except, in the Post-Crisis universe, there was only one timeline, and in 1000 years it would be the future of the Legion of Superheroes, where they obviously didn't exist so you knew their mission was going to fail.

    As for Invasion! I think what they were trying to do was to continue modernizing its Bronze Age concepts as they had done right after the Crisis with Superman, Wonder Woman etc. I think the metagene thing was a great idea; of course it's pseudoscience, but it's consistency rather than reality that matters here eg. not "how can powers be possible?" but rather "why some people get them and others don't?" There were a couple of things that didn't work for me (the aliens dislike humans mostly because... we don't all look alike? Does that mean that every daxamite looks like Mon-El? Also, How do you trust a race that calls itself THE DOMINATORS? I'm sure they are trustworthy, riiiight!) but in general, it was fun and well written. I liked The Blasters, too, too bad they never had their own series.

    As for modern crossovers, I want to contrast Marvel and DC's current approaches: DC has a "constant state of emergency" going on with one crossover directly leading into another; While Marvel used theirs to set up situations that could be explored in later years, almost like a single, long-term story (Civil War to Secret Invasion to Dark Reign, etc.) The difference is that Marvel's seems more organic and giving more freedom to the individual titles to develop as they please, while DC's just sound loosely connected and without lasting effects (other than characters dying.).

    Oh, and worst Crossover ever? Countdown (to Final Crisis.) If you needed proof that the editors (and writers) at DC are disconnected from each other, just look at that mess. Not to mention its (supposed) tie-ins like (God!) Amazons Attack.

  11. #11

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    About the whole topic of more tie-ins and the increased price of comics:

    There's an old saying that "time is money" which some of you may have heard of. Comics read so much quicker these days, and I think that particular factor MORE than offsets the increased price. When I was a kid in the late 80s I used to puzzle over each of those wordy comics for close to a half-hour. But now a comic can be breezed through in like five minutes. So you're really getting SIX TIMES more time-value from a contemporary comic--which gives me an extra twenty-five bonus minutes that I can spend doing other stuff--but the comic companies are only charging us like three or four times as much. SIX TIMES more time-value beats 3-4 times more cost.

    More tie-ins just equal more time saved per issue. If you read enough of them you'll actually have saved so much time that it's really like reading comics for free. Because if you think about it, just existing costs money in a sense, and if you read enough comics during that time than you can supersede the cost of what your life costs per hour.

    Also if you read the right sort of comics then you don't have to think either, which could also be considered less work. When I was younger most comics made me think quite a bit, and I didn't get paid for that work either. But now there are a lot of tie-in comics that definitely don't "reward thinking", a concept which seems to have been revealed for the perversity that it is. I think we're getting a better deal now, all-round.
    Last edited by DarkBeast; 04-04-2011 at 07:47 PM.

  12. #12

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    DarkBeast, your post may be my favorite post ever!

    New Maths for the super-win!
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  13. #13

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    I'm going to have to disagree with Tim and Graeme about Justice League Europe. I thought it was an excellent book, and consistently better than the Justice League America book running simultaneously.

  14. #14
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBeast View Post
    About the whole topic of more tie-ins and the increased price of comics:

    There's an old saying that "time is money" which some of you may have heard of. Comics read so much quicker these days, and I think that particular factor MORE than offsets the increased price. When I was a kid in the late 80s I used to puzzle over each of those wordy comics for close to a half-hour. But now a comic can be breezed through in like five minutes. So you're really getting SIX TIMES more time-value from a contemporary comic--which gives me an extra twenty-five bonus minutes that I can spend doing other stuff--but the comic companies are only charging us like three or four times as much. SIX TIMES more time-value beats 3-4 times more cost.

    More tie-ins just equal more time saved per issue. If you read enough of them you'll actually have saved so much time that it's really like reading comics for free. Because if you think about it, just existing costs money in a sense, and if you read enough comics during that time than you can supersede the cost of what your life costs per hour.

    Also if you read the right sort of comics then you don't have to think either, which could also be considered less work. When I was younger most comics made me think quite a bit, and I didn't get paid for that work either. But now there are a lot of tie-in comics that definitely don't "reward thinking", a concept which seems to have been revealed for the perversity that it is. I think we're getting a better deal now, all-round.
    LOL. Tell us the truth. You're really Joe Quesada's PR Man, aren't you? Now that is what I call a spin.
    Kudos.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garth Rockett View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree with Tim and Graeme about Justice League Europe. I thought it was an excellent book, and consistently better than the Justice League America book running simultaneously.
    QFT. JLE#6, the back to school issue, is probably my favorite single issue of the whole Giffen and DeMatteis JL run. Plus, after Maguire left JLA, Sears' art really stood out, except for the few JLAs Hudges did and also the fill ins in JLE were very poor artwise.

    As for the comments on the cross-overs itself, I did my share on the fisrt part of the article, but there are a few things I'd like to add. Although, in general, Tim and I rarely see eye to eye, in this particular case, I'm more in his camp than in Graeme's. I appreciate the explanation for the rush job that Stanton had to do on Millenium (wasn't aware of that), but if DC had planned ahead and put one of its mainstays such as Garcia López, or Aparo, or even a not so big a name as Chuck Patton on the art, Millenium would have been much more enjoyable for me. If Engelhart had also tonned down the mumbo jumbo and focused more on the Manhunter menance (which, IMHO, was the most interesting part of the story) it could also had been grand.
    Don't remember if I mentioned this on my last post, but I recently picked both the TPB's of Millenium and Invasion, and I'm sad to say that Millenium reads as a total incomprehensible story, with it's juciest part missing without the tie-ins. Invasion, on the other hand, is a completely understandable and fairly self-contained story, where most of the tie-ins merely expand the story (as Bendis loves to claim that the tie-ins of his crossovers do), and not tell it, as in Millenium.
    As for the first issue not containing many heroes, when I picked up the first issue of Invasion, I had no idea what it was about (as someone has said before, comics mere cheap then, and it was an 80 page blockbuster with art by McFarlane - although, IMO, his art was the weakest of the three artists of the series). I was so engrossed in the story that only when I actually finished the issue did I notice that fact. The story in itself was awsome. You guys claimed that the 80 page format proved to be a faliure as a cross-over formula, but dawm, do I wish they'd do more like those nowadays (although, at current prices of comics, I recognize the limitations of the format.)

    Peace

  15. #15
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    Default Invasion had a legacy...

    I would argue that the Grant Morrison Doom Patrol was an Invasion spinoff - yeah the book was already around, but the metagene bomb gave them the perfect way to write off the characters they didn't want and make changes in some of the others. and without the Doom Patrol, I'm not sure that you have most of what Morrison has brought to the DCU since. He was already writing Animal Man (recently upgraded from four issue mini in fact) and his Invasion crossover books were the best, at least as I remember from the time. But it really was the Doom Patrol where Morrison became Grant Morrison, warper of DCU reality.

    the biggest problem with the MetaGene is that it made Bloodlines possible. As a comic book pseudo-science concept, it worked just fine.

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