CBR: Cup O' Joe - Apr 1, 2011

[CBR News]

Tom Brevoort returns for a jam-packed Q&A announcing the return of a lost Mark Waid comic, discussing the "Spider-Girl" cancellation and dissecting the American Panther teaser with a new piece of art.


Full article here.

[aquafanatic]

Not 100% with Tom on his Hank Pym stuff in the latest column. I think as far as Pym goes with us long term fans, he HAS been redeemed by Englehart, Thomas, Busiek, Johns, Harras, Stern, etc. His notion that 'fans' can't let go of him hitting Jan sounds far fetched. It seems like it's the creators that won't let him live it down. Bendis, Millar, etc. But I don't read the letters Marvel gets, just various message boards on the net over the years.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Very well then...I will at least thumb-through American Panther: MWF...just to have a look-see...but I have to say, as much as I like wot Liss and Francavilla has done so far, I will be perusing with some trepidation without any promises.

That costume is still quite atrocious, though.

[Justice~!]

"Brevoort: [Laughs] Well, the almost is there to cover the occasional undoable change in a character. For example, we've spent years trying, but the audience will not forgive Hank Pym for striking the Wasp. That's the moment in that character's history that looms the largest and probably will forever. And when they did the Ultimate version of Hank Pym, that's what they went right to. That's what people think of when they think of that character -- he's a guy that grows and hits his wife. And no matter how many times creators have tried to redeem the character and put him back on a noble, heroic path and have him express his sorrow and express how he and Jan have moved on past that moment -- and quite honestly, most of the people who dislike these attempts haven't even read that story or understood that moment within the context of the original story, which was "Hank is having a nervous breakdown and is not in his right mind" -- that became what the character is about. And part of that is because that was the most interesting thing that had ever happened to that character, and so that really cemented it. Any number of creative teams since then have struggle mightily trying to get that moment to be overcome, including myself, and nobody’s been able to outperform the gravity of it. But that's sort of the rare exception. Most everything else is fixable. But that rule’s not quite absolute.

Well, you know what I always say when there's a character like that...just kill him. Put him down like a dog.

Brevoort: [Laughs] That's your answer to everything!"

LOL, cue firestorm from outraged Pym fans in 3..2..1...

[Ravin' Ray]

Hopefully, repositioning Spider-Girl the way we plan to will allow us to find more success with it down the road. We've had series in the past like "Runaways" or "She-Hulk" where we come out with a book that gets some critical buzz but doesn't pull in the numbers as well as we’d like, so we put it on the shelf for a while and do a more coordinated second launch, and then it's done better.

The recent She-Hulks received good feedback and had us Shulkie fans clamoring for more, yet what was supposed to be on ongoing stopped at #4.

Glad to read him say that "Marvel Vault" will continue.

[sparticus]

The recent She-Hulks received good feedback and had us Shulkie fans clamoring for more, yet what was supposed to be on ongoing stopped at #4.

Glad to read him say that "Marvel Vault" will continue.

This also happened with Atlas, twice! Still didn't get the damn numbers.

[Skaddix]

lol look at that Prom Issue, the supposed teachers are already beating the crap out of each other. and it looks like striker and veil are having relationship issues.

[Songbird/Diamondback]

That prom issue is going to be AWESOME.

[motteditor]

I couldn't disagree more with the Pym comments. It's the WRITERS who keep going back to the story, not the fans. Stern, Englehart and Byrne did an amazing job fixing the character, and the godawful Shooter Assassination basically wasn't mentioned IIRC through the end of v.1 of Avengers.

But then it started popping up again in the last 10 years or so (30 years after it happened). You have the Ultimate version, and then Marvel let Chuck Austen write a story where Clint suddenly freaks out about the slap, even though it was Clint who was used to bring Hank back into the Avengers fold. Even in a great series like Beyond!, it came up. Just focus on the current incarnation of the character, and get over one lousy issue of Avengers, and the character will be fine.

After all, the most interesting thing to happen to Warbird was the equally execrable Avengers 200, but you don't see writers making that the sole focus of every story the character is in.

[strathcona]

I couldn't disagree more with the Pym comments. It's the WRITERS who keep going back to the story, not the fans. Stern, Englehart and Byrne did an amazing job fixing the character, and the godawful Shooter Assassination basically wasn't mentioned IIRC through the end of v.1 of Avengers.

But then it started popping up again in the last 10 years or so (30 years after it happened). You have the Ultimate version, and then Marvel let Chuck Austen write a story where Clint suddenly freaks out about the slap, even though it was Clint who was used to bring Hank back into the Avengers fold. Even in a great series like Beyond!, it came up. Just focus on the current incarnation of the character, and get over one lousy issue of Avengers, and the character will be fine.

After all, the most interesting thing to happen to Warbird was the equally execrable Avengers 200, but you don't see writers making that the sole focus of every story the character is in.

Unsurprisingly, I completely agree with what you are saying... because it's 100% right.

[Ravin' Ray]

The mention of She-Hulk and Marvel Vault recalls to me this CBR interview with Dan Slott, more than six years ago:

Despite acclaim from all corners of the market, from other creators to fans to critics, the sales on "She-Hulk" have been, to say the least, disappointing. "First, let me say this-I would never have the courage to be a comic book retailer!" says Slott. "What a risky, risky, risky job! Every month you have to place your orders for hundreds of comics-and, hey, nobody's given you a crystal ball. You have no idea what's going to be the next big thing, or the cult hit, or worse-the big flop! You're investing your own capital, and most of the time you're left holding 40 copies of some big comic book turkey! Who needs that grief?

"That said, they need to order more 'She-Hulk.' This book does not suffer from low sales. It suffers from low orders. That's an important distinction. When you put 'She-Hulk' in people's hands, most of them come back next month for more. Stores that promote 'She-Hulk' are selling through on 'She-Hulk.' I can't put it any simpler than that. So? What can Marvel do to make it easier for retailers to get behind this book? A lot! They've released a trade of the first six issues ('She-Hulk: Single Green Female,' on sale now!) including the hard to find 'She-Hulk' #1. And, as said before, they're relaunching the book in May with a new #1 and a big push!

I think this is one of those hiatuses and relaunches Brevoort was referring to.

And then for #4, 'She-Hulk' is taking part in 'The House of M!' Whew!

Would this qualify for the Marvel Vault treatment? I hope so.

[Scavenger]

I hope Spider-Girl will come back, ala Slott's She-Hulk, but to be fair, it crippled itself.
Let's introduce a fun young character, and in issue 2, let's murder her father and have a molestor stalk her.

Good plan to win those readers.

The dire, nu-marvel house style of sketchy photo realistic 90's Vertigo style art didn't help.

[cookepuss]

I don't want to sound like Nelson Muntz, but I'm kinda glad that Spider-Girl tanked. Not that it didn't have anything good going for it. There were a few things. However, as a long time fan of the DeFalco book, I felt that this book just WASN'T Spider-Girl. Arana is as much Spider-Girl as USAgent was Captain America. Both fair enough characters in their own right, but not nearly captivating enough when compared to the originals.

It's a shame that Marvel wants to keep Peter 20-something forever and that they feel that having an alternate universe daughter would somehow age him if they brought her into the 616. It's a big mistake, imo, to wholly dump a character who has been around for 13 years - a bulk of that time in her own ongoing. Even worse to dump her in favor of a knockoff, one whose very design is rooted in some fairly sketchy cultural and ethnic stereotypes.

I don't think that Marvel's introduction of Rachel Summers or Cable aged Cyclops significantly. Likewise, I don't even feel Wolverine having a 16 year old clone or a 70-something year old son ages him beyond what he already was. Marvel probably feels that, with a teenage alterna-daughter out there, Peter can't be the fun free spirit loaf that that they (and Mephisto) want him to be. I sorta disagree. Neither marriage, nor kids suddenly turn previously young characters into the Ancient One. Yet Marvel insists on making 99% of their characters barren and single.

I wonder who Marvel believes that their core demographic is. Clearly, comics are not for 10 year old Billy anymore. Many comics now contain graphic violence and sexual innuendo that might well have been appropriate for a R-rated movie only 10 years ago. Comics now cost about $4 a pop. That's well outside of allowance territory. When I was a kid in the mid-80s, they were about $0.60 an issue and I could blow my $7 weekly allowance on about 11 or 12 titles. Now, that same stack costs me about $50 or more. My LCS is here in NY. In the many years I've been going there, I've maybe seen one kid there. The rest of them are all adults in the 20y-50y range. The only time I see teens and tweens going for the comics is at the bigger bookstores. Even then, they're going for TPBs - mostly manga at that.

I guess what I'm saying is that, if Marvel's criteria for keeping Mayday out of the 616 or comics in general has to do with demographics and Spider-Man himself then their target demo seems to be way off. If Batman can have a 12 year old son and have raised 3 teens to adulthood over the years, yet still feel like he's in his mid-30s then I can't see why Mayday is left off in exile.

Maybe it has something to do with respect for DeFalco and not wanting any other creator to touch her. Still, that sort of logic has largely kept great properties like Runaways, Young Avengers, and Next Wave on the sidelines for years. Maybe it has something to do with the fans and some perceived desire to keep the MC2 and her supporting cast around. Then again, as a longtime Spider-Girl fan, I think that some Mayday is better than none. I'd much rather have her moved over to the 616 and let other writers get a crack at her than to have her banished for the next decade.

Like I said, I'm glad Arana-Girl tanked. Frankly, I gave it three 4-issue arcs - or 12 issues. That it got canned at 8 was a bit shocking. Marvel has been lobbying hard to push Arana onto the masses for years now, especially after the Mattie Franklin Spider-Woman coup attempt failed to oust the MC2 Spider-Girl from the stands. I honestly can't see where they'll take the character next. She's got no solo title anymore. Her group title "Young Allies" lasted only 6 issues. She's clearly not going to take the Spotlight from Peter. What's next? Shoehorn her into Avengers Academy and ruin that title too?

I've said it a couple of times and I'll say it again. I'm glad this iteration of Spider-Girl got canned. Glad. Glad. Glad. Glad. Glad.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I hope Spider-Girl will come back, ala Slott's She-Hulk, but to be fair, it crippled itself.
Let's introduce a fun young character, and in issue 2, let's murder her father and have a molestor stalk her.

Good plan to win those readers.

The dire, nu-marvel house style of sketchy photo realistic 90's Vertigo style art didn't help.

That is EXACTLY the reason I dropped the book. I want fun lighthearted comics. The world is already a downer, I don't need death all over my comics. Since the beginning of the year, I think Marvel has killed off like 30 major characters. Hello?

And I didn't know Hank had slapped his wife until someone posted that panel as a punchline to a joke less than five years ago online. Yeah, fans aren't the ones who weren't letting it go. It was Mark Millar who saw it as Hank's defining characteristic. No surprise there.

[Brannon]

I couldn't disagree more with the Pym comments. It's the WRITERS who keep going back to the story, not the fans. Stern, Englehart and Byrne did an amazing job fixing the character, and the godawful Shooter Assassination basically wasn't mentioned IIRC through the end of v.1 of Avengers.

But then it started popping up again in the last 10 years or so (30 years after it happened). You have the Ultimate version, and then Marvel let Chuck Austen write a story where Clint suddenly freaks out about the slap, even though it was Clint who was used to bring Hank back into the Avengers fold. Even in a great series like Beyond!, it came up. Just focus on the current incarnation of the character, and get over one lousy issue of Avengers, and the character will be fine.

After all, the most interesting thing to happen to Warbird was the equally execrable Avengers 200, but you don't see writers making that the sole focus of every story the character is in.

I think it's a sad testament that editors, and fans, think that a slap to Janet was the most interesting thing Pym ever did. Really? So creating Pym particles and Ultron doesn't quite rank with an overblown domestic squabble? Are we really this boring and myopic nowadays?