Jean Grey Appreciation III

[PwrdOff]

God, Cyclops is such a douche. I can totally buy the argument that the X-Men were just looking for a reason to take him down, because Lord knows that's what I would have done. Teen Jean needs to destroy him, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and leave him begging for the sweet succor of death.

[Phoenix Egg]

I hope she avoids both Cyclopes. That invitation from ANXM #7 should make things so awkward that she just tries to avoid crossing his path.

[CJStriker]

God, Cyclops is such a douche. I can totally buy the argument that the X-Men were just looking for a reason to take him down, because Lord knows that's what I would have done. Teen Jean needs to destroy him, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and leave him begging for the sweet succor of death.

I will say about Cyclops what I said in another post (this excludes his P5 time):

Cyclops - Really Big Ego and Very Smug, even though he seems to want to help mutants it really seems to be "All About Him", and making sure what he does makes him look good.

In the end it seem that bring back mutants was not about bring them back by any means, but it seem at time it was about HIM somehow being responsible for bringing them.

[Hariel0079]

I will say about Cyclops what I said in another post (this excludes his P5 time):

Cyclops - Really Big Ego and Very Smug, even though he seems to want to help mutants it really seems to be "All About Him", and making sure what he does makes him look good.

In the end it seem that bring back mutants was not about bring them back by any means, but it seem at time it was about HIM somehow being responsible for bringing them.

That and the whole "mutant revolution" that seems self fullfilling.

[peanutsinspace]

Can you guys help me out with a question, I repeatedly hear how often Jean dies but I only clock her as having died three times. First as DP (even though it's sketchy with the 'was she/wasn't she debate, at the time everyone believed her to have been Jean) Second when Xorneto gave her a stroke and lastly in Endsong. Has she died more than that though?

[ariwl1]

Depends on who you ask

http://www.alternatecover.com/featur...ean-grey-died/

[PwrdOff]

Can you guys help me out with a question, I repeatedly hear how often Jean dies but I only clock her as having died three times. First as DP (even though it's sketchy with the 'was she/wasn't she debate, at the time everyone believed her to have been Jean) Second when Xorneto gave her a stroke and lastly in Endsong. Has she died more than that though?

Once teen Jean screws with the timeline, the answer to that will be zero, since being exposed to all of these modern events will allow her to build up more emotional resiliency and be able to handle the Phoenix better when it does appear. As far as Marvel's preferred continuity goes though, Jean only died once on the moon, and all of the 80s and 90s stuff either happened BEFORE that or didn't happen at all, just like it apparently is in the movies and cartoons. Madelyne and Rachel basically never existed at all, and Hope is starting to slowly drift into that status also. And if Bendis is going to stick Scott and Jean back together, the entire relationship between him and Emma will also never be brought up again.

Retcons are a pretty tricky business, because there's always an innate desire for writers to clean up these fictional universes and reset them to be exactly how they want it to be or how they saw it growing up. At the same time though, most of the best stories only came about because of spontaneous and risky writing, so it's quite hard to get the ball rolling again after you reboot while still keeping everything relatively ordered and organized. That's why the best writers always work within the confines of continuity and take the long difficult path to get things to where you want them, instead of relying cheap gimmicks and easy fixes to accomplish that.

[perdid06]

Welcome!



You guys should all post more!

Oh we try...but aside of the JG Appreciation thread, CBR forum is very hostile to Jean grey fans...

[aries27]

and I can't help asking for jean and scott back together cause I worship jean and I like scott, (who's pretty sexy in that last panel^^), and every time it leads to pointless cyclop's bashing

[celestialbodies]

Can you guys help me out with a question, I repeatedly hear how often Jean dies but I only clock her as having died three times. First as DP (even though it's sketchy with the 'was she/wasn't she debate, at the time everyone believed her to have been Jean) Second when Xorneto gave her a stroke and lastly in Endsong. Has she died more than that though?

Jean's supposed deaths are highly exaggerated and used to besmirch her name she died as DP, and again at he end of NXM where she ascended to the WHR, which really wasn't a death but Marvel of course wouldn't know the difference. People who often spout that claim and rarely if ever have any proof besides alternate realities, or that time Jean's body appeared to "die" when in actuality she merely switched minds with Emma Frost.

[ariwl1]

Per TV Tropes' "Never Live it Down" page:

"Jean Grey is probably the most unfortunate victim of this. How many times did she genuinely come Back from the Dead? If you don't count fake-outs, clones, androids, or shapeshifters (never mind that these are all common cop-out tactics to Retcon an actual death into Only Mostly Dead)... once. This puts the poor woman on the low end of comic book resurrections. But those who haven't done the necessary reading just know her for her resurrection, and think it's more common than it actually is, or else going mad. Her ties to The Phoenix Force haven't helped.

And it's not just the resurrection. As awesome as the last two issues of the Dark Phoenix Saga are, writers of every comic book story involving her in the past decade, as well as Wolverine and the X-Men and even two out of three movies, seem to think it's the only story she was ever in. 40 years of going through as much as any other character, and the world seems to forget that there's more to Jean Grey that "Goes Phoenix, goes nuts, dies, gets better." (It's also unfortunate that the many issues between "goes Phoenix" and "goes nuts" are forgotten. Non-dark Phoenix is Made of Win, but nobody even remembers it happened). There's one fortunate exception: the X-Men: Evolution animated series. There is no Dark Phoenix in it, except for a couple of seconds in the "Where Are They Now?" Epilogue (and even those seconds may be open to interpretation).

The writers themselves believe it. Many characters use Jean Grey as a comparison for people always coming back from the dead. In Phoenix: Endsong, Wolverine lampshaded it, claiming he was tired of killing her! (maybe meta-humor, counting the film).

This trope, in fact, used to be called "Jean Grey Escalation," but tropers kept proving the point by assuming it referred to the false notion that she "always comes Back from the Dead." Examples of characters either getting new power or dying a lot were constantly being listed here, or on works' pages as being this trope."

[peanutsinspace]

I knew I could count on all of you for helpful information. Thank you!!

[ZehnWaters]

Also that blasted cartoon. First impressions can are very strong, and a lot of people's first exposure to Jean is through that dreaded 90s animated series which portrayed her horribly. Luckily, I discovered she was nothing like that in the comics, and luckily her portrayals have been fairly good in the movies, and subsequent cartoons.

She had her moments. The PS and DPS were done well. There was also the one time she blasted Mr. Sinister into pieces on her own.

Here's the thing personally I'm always a bit perturbed when anyone attempts to compare Jean as DP, to the P5 or to Scott as the "DP" solely because IMHO, and fan bias aside the circumstances where totally different both Jean and the P5 didn't ask for the power they received but Jean unlike the P5 took several steps to keep the PF under control like installing several psychic circuit breakers to calm her power, and she was manipulated by Emma and Mastermind she also had no idea what this power was or meant or no "cautionary tale" to look upon.

The P5 surely didn't ask for this power but were fully aware of it's power and watched it destroy Jean once and it's repeated re-manifestations and had Rachel's and Jean's experiences to learn from regarding the PF just as it could bring gifts the PF could also bring curses and Scott unlike Jean choose to become "DP". The X-men fought to save their friend who had previously saved the universe herself and their asses with this awesome power, they fought against Cyke and the P5 because of the slippery slope he was going down could the X-men's motivations been A LOT better during AvX sure but I don't think anyone can make a case for why the X-men choose to save Jean and combat Scott and the P5 based on what was presented in the actual comics.


Lastly sometimes people have selective memories concerning Jean as the DP, she became the DP twice one during the original Saga, she had spikes in NXM which the X-men where weary of and the crazed PF during Endsong and Scott's first response was....



So the perceived notion that the X-men always stood behind Jean is false they were willing to take her down to stop the DP, until she stopped herself AGAIN and then saved their asses again.

This. Very true. People will always remember history through their own bias.

[ZehnWaters]

God, Cyclops is such a douche. I can totally buy the argument that the X-Men were just looking for a reason to take him down, because Lord knows that's what I would have done. Teen Jean needs to destroy him, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and leave him begging for the sweet succor of death.

That'd be nice. Not young Cyke though, he's probably screwed up enough.

I will say about Cyclops what I said in another post (this excludes his P5 time):

Cyclops - Really Big Ego and Very Smug, even though he seems to want to help mutants it really seems to be "All About Him", and making sure what he does makes him look good.

In the end it seem that bring back mutants was not about bring them back by any means, but it seem at time it was about HIM somehow being responsible for bringing them.

Sounds about right. Even in early issues, now that I think about it. I mean, wasn't the point of the PF coming to earth that it was reignite the Mutants? Where's Jubilee? Where are the rest of the de-powered mutants? Scott didn't care about any of them, only the world-wide "Utopia" he could build and get credit for. I mean, seriously, how long would it have taken to turn Jubilee back from a Vampire and into a Mutant? Minutes? SECONDS? She was his freakin' teammate for heaven's sake.

[joshtylen]

Bendis is doing an x-position next week. Send in your questions guys. Write x-position in the title.

ssunu@comicbookresources.com