Jean Grey Appreciation III

**ariwl1** · 11-29-2012, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Hariel0079

Anyone Read Ult.XM#19 with Jean at the End?

I haven't been following that series. Anything interesting happen?

**Hariel0079** · 11-29-2012, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by ariwl1

I haven't been following that series. Anything interesting happen?

Well, near the ending Events of UWS when Kitty made her speech that broadcasted around the world uniting mutants to take a stand against the Sentinel/Nimrod/Stryker

and trying to make a home in NA.. Jean on the other hand feel that the Sear in asia is the real home for mutants and decides to keep tabs on everything that Kitty does. All of her movements.

This weeks issue she now refers herself (Jean that is) as the "Mistress Of Sear" and everyone at sear seems to be under her command as she still has Farbird do recon for her and she has a map of NA with points on them.

**5cents** · 11-29-2012, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Hariel0079

Anyone Read Ult.XM#19 with Jean at the End?

I saw the panel someone posted in the UCXM #19 review thread. Woods says she will be coming back. He just has to set up the Kitty and company situation first. I do wonder where he is going with Jean.

**Hariel0079** · 11-29-2012, 10:31 PM

Well the parrellism of magneto/cyke/Logan/Xavier between Kitty,Jean, and Nomi is very apparent

**MarvelMaster616** · 11-30-2012, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by 5cents

I saw the panel someone posted in the UCXM #19 review thread. Woods says she will be coming back. He just has to set up the Kitty and company situation first. I do wonder where he is going with Jean.

I can spoil it for you right now. Everything gets worse for mutants. Every issue and arc will end with mutants becoming more screwed and the same applies to Jean Grey. Like every other character in Ultimate, she's just going to become a greater douche-bag as the series unfolds. That's really all Ultimate does anymore. Everything gets worse. There's no hope whatsoever. And characters turn into douche-bags. Besides, the current story is nothing more than Days of Futures Past mixed with Age of X. There is absolutely nothing in Ultimate right now that you can't find in Age of X or Days of Futures Past. Ultimate already had a chance to make good use of Jean while she was dead in 616. Now she's not just back in that book, she's also getting a much more generous treatment in Age of Apocalypse. So I really don't see why any Jean fan would want to follow Ultimate in any capacity unless they want to see Jean or most of their other favorite characters get treated with horrendous neglect or apathy.

**Cushman** · 11-30-2012, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616

I can spoil it for you right now. Everything gets worse for mutants. Every issue and arc will end with mutants becoming more screwed and the same applies to Jean Grey. Like every other character in Ultimate, she's just going to become a greater douche-bag as the series unfolds. That's really all Ultimate does anymore. Everything gets worse. There's no hope whatsoever. And characters turn into douche-bags. Besides, the current story is nothing more than Days of Futures Past mixed with Age of X. There is absolutely nothing in Ultimate right now that you can't find in Age of X or Days of Futures Past. Ultimate already had a chance to make good use of Jean while she was dead in 616. Now she's not just back in that book, she's also getting a much more generous treatment in Age of Apocalypse. So I really don't see why any Jean fan would want to follow Ultimate in any capacity unless they want to see Jean or most of their other favorite characters get treated with horrendous neglect or apathy.

If you don't like it then why are you reading it. If people like the Ultimate stories why not let them enjoy it. If you don't like something the simplest thing is to stop reading it. When you start hating on something you become a complete troll.

**ariwl1** · 11-30-2012, 08:42 AM

I always kind of figured that was the point of the Ultimate line. Since it's an alternate universe they were able to follow things through without any restraints against killing people off or upheaving the status quo. I read through the original run up through Ultimatum and enjoyed a good amount of it but haven't seen much past that. I don't mind with them taking extreme liberalizations with the characters since that's what these universes are for, but I probably would get tired if it was always doom and gloom in the stories. That's probably why I don't read Age of Apocalypse either.

**Hariel0079** · 11-30-2012, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by ariwl1

I always kind of figured that was the point of the Ultimate line. Since it's an alternate universe they were able to follow things through without any restraints against killing people off or upheaving the status quo. I read through the original run up through Ultimatum and enjoyed a good amount of it but haven't seen much past that. I don't mind with them taking extreme liberalizations with the characters since that's what these universes are for, but I probably would get tired if it was always doom and gloom in the stories. That's probably why I don't read Age of Apocalypse either.

Give it a read, it's good, If you go on reading with the 616 attachment and hoping for characters to act like their counterparts instead of treating it like it is then yea you'll probably be like marvelmaster616 in your views

**MarvelMaster616** · 11-30-2012, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cushman

If you don't like it then why are you reading it. If people like the Ultimate stories why not let them enjoy it. If you don't like something the simplest thing is to stop reading it. When you start hating on something you become a complete troll.

I wasn't saying people shouldn't read or enjoy it. I'm just giving my take. I haven't been able to finish reading a full Ultimate book for quite a while because they're all painfully boring. And having an opinion about a book doesn't make me a troll. Mindlessly praising something while ignoring any flaws is way worse in my opinion. Ultimate clearly has flaws. The fact that Ultimate X-men is the lowest selling Ultimate book at the moment (check comichron.com if you don't believe me) should be an indication that not everyone thinks it's awesome. Are those people that don't like prohibited from talking about it?

**Cushman** · 11-30-2012, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616

I wasn't saying people shouldn't read or enjoy it. I'm just giving my take. I haven't been able to finish reading a full Ultimate book for quite a while because they're all painfully boring. And having an opinion about a book doesn't make me a troll. Mindlessly praising something while ignoring any flaws is way worse in my opinion. Ultimate clearly has flaws. The fact that Ultimate X-men is the lowest selling Ultimate book at the moment (check comichron.com if you don't believe me) should be an indication that not everyone thinks it's awesome. Are those people that don't like prohibited from talking about it?

Well by your logic people would hate every low selling book. Sure there are some flaws to the story but it's hardly a "bad book". But it goes back to the question if you don't like it why are you reading it?

**MarvelMaster616** · 11-30-2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Cushman

Well by your logic people would hate every low selling book. Sure there are some flaws to the story but it's hardly a "bad book". But it goes back to the question if you don't like it why are you reading it?

Compared to how Ultimate X-men used to sell, it's not a trivial drop. When a book starts out low selling, then that's not too big a deal because it's usually a targeted market. That's what Age of Apocalypse and X-men Forever were like. But Ultimate X-men used to be a regular top seller. There was even a time when it was regularly in the top 10 and selling over 100k issues. Even after the relaunch, it sold more than double what it's selling right now. When sales decline that much, it's not trivial. As for why I read it, I still have an interest in X-men books in general and I used to read Ultimate pretty regularly. I don't anymore, but does that mean I'm still not able to have an opinion about it?

**Cushman** · 11-30-2012, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616

Compared to how Ultimate X-men used to sell, it's not a trivial drop. When a book starts out low selling, then that's not too big a deal because it's usually a targeted market. That's what Age of Apocalypse and X-men Forever were like. But Ultimate X-men used to be a regular top seller. There was even a time when it was regularly in the top 10 and selling over 100k issues. Even after the relaunch, it sold more than double what it's selling right now. When sales decline that much, it's not trivial. As for why I read it, I still have an interest in X-men books in general and I used to read Ultimate pretty regularly. I don't anymore, but does that mean I'm still not able to have an opinion about it?

Except you make it sound as if the entire Ultimate Universe is bad. Every universe has some good and bad aspects. The 616 universe has a lot of bad aspects but it's not completely bad. Neither is the Ultimate Universe. It's fine to have an opinion but when that opinion is entire hate that's not an opinion anymore it's just hate.

**MarvelMaster616** · 11-30-2012, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Cushman

Except you make it sound as if the entire Ultimate Universe is bad. Every universe has some good and bad aspects. The 616 universe has a lot of bad aspects but it's not completely bad. Neither is the Ultimate Universe. It's fine to have an opinion but when that opinion is entire hate that's not an opinion anymore it's just hate.

It's still subjective at the end of the day. I know some people like the Ultimate universe and that's fine. I'm not saying 616 doesn't have its flaws, but you're assuming more hate than I'm conveying. I didn't say I hate Ultimate and nobody should like it. I just gave my interpretation of what's going on in Ultimate X-men right now with Jean Grey. If you're missing the meaning of my words or misconstruing them, I can't really help you. You're going to assume whatever you want to assume. I brought up sales because that's one of the few objective ways we can actually gauge interest in a book. We've seen in the past how other books have gone through steady declines and into cancellation. X-men Forever is a good example. So is Generation Hope. My position is that decline is NOT trivial.

But we're getting off topic. This is the Jean Grey appreciation thread. The mere fact that Marvel didn't kill her in Ultimate and had a chance to make her a prominent character at a time when she wasn't heavily featured in other books I think indicates how little they care. I'm not an expert marketing guru, but when there's a gap in a market and you don't fill it then that's just bad business practice. Marvel could have made Jean the leader in Ultimate X-men. Instead, they made her some emo procelin doll who likes to screw with peoples' minds in a very OOC way, even for Ultimate. She was such a great character in Ultimate, outgoing and sassy. Now she might as well be stick figure. She's falling into the same trap that so many other Ultimate characters have fallen into, namely becoming insufferable douche-bags. I know that happens in 616, but at least they try to redeem themselves like Cyclops and Captain America are trying to do in 616. I see none of that in Ultimate. And whether you agree with it or not, I think it's a fair criticism.