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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In all fairness, it was Emma making the accusations.
    Yeah, but the thing is that no one defended the Avengers or pointed out how many other times that teams weren't around to help each other and it wasn't a problem. Or the times when they did help each other out. Thor helped X-Factor during the Mutant Massacre. The Avengers and X-Men worked together during Blood Ties.

    I understand it was a heat of the moment thing said by Emma but it should have been taken as that and not expanded into this full-fledged feud. There are many instances that could be pointed out on either side so to let Genosha stand out above all others doesn't seem right.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    Yeah, but the thing is that no one defended the Avengers or pointed out how many other times that teams weren't around to help each other and it wasn't a problem. Or the times when they did help each other out. Thor helped X-Factor during the Mutant Massacre. The Avengers and X-Men worked together during Blood Ties.

    I understand it was a heat of the moment thing said by Emma but it should have been taken as that and not expanded into this full-fledged feud. There are many instances that could be pointed out on either side so to let Genosha stand out above all others doesn't seem right.
    They certainly could have tried to debate Emma on the issue. Especially given the source... they were out saving the world when Emma was spending her free time kidnapping teenage girls.

    But we have to remember the context of the situation. They were trying to get the X-Mens help... or in the least make sure they weren't going to help Steve's side.

    Considering that the X-Men likely were at least sympathizing with Caps side, arguing that the X-Men don't get invovled enough probably would have been counter intuitive to Stark and Carols goal. If they weren't going to help Starks side, then I'm sure both he and Carol were all to happy with them sitting on the side lines doing nothing.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They certainly could have tried to debate Emma on the issue. Especially given the source... they were out saving the world when Emma was spending her free time kidnapping teenage girls.

    But we have to remember the context of the situation. They were trying to get the X-Mens help... or in the least make sure they weren't going to help Steve's side.

    Considering that the X-Men likely were at least sympathizing with Caps side, arguing that the X-Men don't get invovled enough probably would have been counter intuitive to Stark and Carols goal. If they weren't going to help Starks side, then I'm sure both he and Carol were all to happy with them sitting on the side lines doing nothing.
    This is beyond CW now. The Avengers did come to aid the X-Men during Second Coming and Steve had been reaching out to Scott. I can understand some hard feelings still but in certain situations, they need to work past that. No one should have to approach anyone for help when the fate of the world is at stake.

    I'm also curious about how the X-Men feel about Storm joining the Avengers. Do they consider her a traitor?
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    Yeah, but the thing is that no one defended the Avengers or pointed out how many other times that teams weren't around to help each other and it wasn't a problem. Or the times when they did help each other out. Thor helped X-Factor during the Mutant Massacre. The Avengers and X-Men worked together during Blood Ties.

    I understand it was a heat of the moment thing said by Emma but it should have been taken as that and not expanded into this full-fledged feud. There are many instances that could be pointed out on either side so to let Genosha stand out above all others doesn't seem right.
    Yeah I don't think it was meant to be heat-of-the-moment at all, Emma said it but Cyclops was there to agree, wasn't he? And he's been digging at the Avengers since. It's definitely become a thing with them.

    Moreover the Avengers were kind of there for Genosha... Quicksilver was there in Excalibur I think with Xavier and Sabra and Storm during the initial search for survivors (they found Polaris), and he and Wanda were there again in the Austen issues where Polaris went nuts. There wasn't much that the Avengers could have done there anyway, no more than the X-Men.

  5. #65
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    This is beyond CW now. The Avengers did come to aid the X-Men during Second Coming and Steve had been reaching out to Scott. I can understand some hard feelings still but in certain situations, they need to work past that. No one should have to approach anyone for help when the fate of the world is at stake.

    I'm also curious about how the X-Men feel about Storm joining the Avengers. Do they consider her a traitor?
    Sure, but I'm just discussing why no one was bothering to defend the Avengers at the time the accusations were made.

    If the X-men decide to make them again, the situation would obviously be different and the Avengers might actually bother giving a retort. Not that they even need to... they certainly don't own any explanations to Emma. It's not like her list of heroism is really going to put anyone else's to shame.

    And I don't think we necessarily need to assume that Emmas view applies to all the X-Men. Given how many freely have been joining the Avengers, I'm sure plenty are completely cool with them.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Yeah I don't think it was meant to be heat-of-the-moment at all, Emma said it but Cyclops was there to agree, wasn't he? And he's been digging at the Avengers since. It's definitely become a thing with them.

    Moreover the Avengers were kind of there for Genosha... Quicksilver was there in Excalibur I think with Xavier and Sabra and Storm during the initial search for survivors (they found Polaris), and he and Wanda were there again in the Austen issues where Polaris went nuts. There wasn't much that the Avengers could have done there anyway, no more than the X-Men.
    That's the thing, no one was prepared for what happened to Genosha anymore so than what happened to Slorenia during Ultron Unlimited. No one asked where were the FF or X-Men. That's why these arguments hold very little weight.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Sure, but I'm just discussing why no one was bothering to defend the Avengers at the time the accusations were made.

    If the X-men decide to make them again, the situation would obviously be different and the Avengers might actually bother giving a retort. Not that they even need to... they certainly don't own any explanations to Emma. It's not like her list of heroism is really going to put anyone else's to shame.

    And I don't think we necessarily need to assume that Emmas view applies to all the X-Men. Given how many freely have been joining the Avengers, I'm sure plenty are completely cool with them.
    I didn't expect everyone to defend the Avengers at that very moment but someone could have said it wasn't that time for commenbts like that. Beast, being a former Avenger cetainly could have stepped forward. Really anyone else for that matter.
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  8. #68
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    Generally when the planet is about to blow up or get invaded or something, the Xmen are never around to help the Avengers or the FF.

    Currently the Earth is being invaded (again by the Kree) in the Fantastic Four and the only Xmen that are there are the ones that are Avengers.

    That is the way these books are written. Everybody has thier own beat to pound. Nobody helps the FF or Avengers fight off invasions and nobody helps the Xmen wth the latest Sentinel outbreak.

    Only the Xbooks try to make this a plot point. You dont get Avengers angrily asking whay were the Xmen doing when Washington was being invaded by Sin and mecha Nazis were killing civillians
    That ignores the fact that the Avengers work for the X-mens most reliable villain.
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  9. #69
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In all fairness, it was Emma making the accusations.
    Were any of therm incorrect? Emma was talking to Ms. Marvel while surrounded by thugs belonging to Ms. Marvels chosen employer
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  10. #70
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    Yeah, but the thing is that no one defended the Avengers or pointed out how many other times that teams weren't around to help each other and it wasn't a problem. Or the times when they did help each other out. Thor helped X-Factor during the Mutant Massacre. The Avengers and X-Men worked together during Blood Ties.

    I understand it was a heat of the moment thing said by Emma but it should have been taken as that and not expanded into this full-fledged feud. There are many instances that could be pointed out on either side so to let Genosha stand out above all others doesn't seem right.
    Not Just Genosha, did they stand against the MRA, or wait until it affected them, Did they mount a rescue mission to rescue the 198 from the Avengers employers?

    It is not just one event, but to a mutant that even would be the most significant thing that has happened in history, genocide and holocausts are not things that leave the mind easily.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If you want to challenge murderous scum, then feel free to challenge it.

    But that has nothing to do with mutants not being accountable to human law. They should be accountable to the exact same laws that the rest of us are. If those laws are unfairly applied against them then challenge them... that's fine. But that's not the same thing as deciding that all human laws no longer apply to them.

    Lets say a mutant commits a crime? What realistically should Scott expect law enforcement to do? Of course they will arrest that mutant (or at least try to), and submit them to due process. It's what they SHOULD do.
    I disagree with a lot of the things the government has done to mutants over the years, but that doesn't automatically make Scott right. Laws should be applied equally to mutants as everyone else. That not only means that laws shouldn't strip mutants of rights... it also means they shouldn't get a free pass for them either. It should work both ways.
    I think you are a little exaggerating: Scott didn't write in that "letter to humanity" that mutants aren't accountable for their crimes or they don't have to obey human law. He wrote that mutants accused of a crime have to be judged and eventually detained on Utopia.
    Almost all the world governments have shown that they tolerate, encourage and practice mutants discrimination, so I think Scott's point has some merit. The right to a due process is very important, and Scott is right when he thinks that a mutant has more chance to receive a due process on Utopia than in the rest of the world.

    What Scott will do if a mutant is arrested is an interesting question. In the mini "Magneto-not an hero", Magneto, after Schism, is accused of numerous murders in USA. Scott brought Magneto to the Avengers mansion to talk with Steve and Tony. In the end Scott and Steve have agreed that Scott had few day to figure out what's going on, otherwise Scott will have to take care of Magneto. This indicates that Scott will search first a diplomatic solution. But if a diplomatic solution will be not possible, what will he do? Personally, I think it will depend if he is convinced that the mutant will receive a due process or not.

    At the moment this letter doesn't seem to worsen the relationship between mutants and Avengers or the rest of the world: the street team is cooperating with the San Francisco police; the extinction team is cooperating with SWORD and one of its member is now an Avengers; Scott, Emma and Magneto were invited at the Avengers Academy; Steve gave Scott time to handle the situation in "Magneto - not a hero"; goverment employees gave the go ahead to a new mutants school. Maybe they all are thinking Scott is bluffing. Or the hero community think that Scott has good reason to do so.

  12. #72
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Not Just Genosha, did they stand against the MRA, or wait until it affected them, Did they mount a rescue mission to rescue the 198 from the Avengers employers?

    It is not just one event, but to a mutant that even would be the most significant thing that has happened in history, genocide and holocausts are not things that leave the mind easily.
    As bad as genocides and holocausts are, Galactus eating the planet would be worse. But no one gives a dam if the X-men didn't show up to help stop him. Nor should they.

    The X-Men for the most part sat out Civil War, and no one really complained about that. The X-Men had their own problems to deal with, and that's fine... the heroes understood that. Just as most of the X-men (except Emma) realize that if the Avengers aren't showing up to help the X-men, it's probably due to them having other things to deal with too.

    That's just how things work in the marvel universe. Not every super hero will show up to help every other super hero when there's a problem. There are PLENTY of things which have happened which Emma hasn't shown up to help stop too. And that's fine.

  13. #73
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwing15 View Post
    I think you are a little exaggerating: Scott didn't write in that "letter to humanity" that mutants aren't accountable for their crimes or they don't have to obey human law. He wrote that mutants accused of a crime have to be judged and eventually detained on Utopia.
    Almost all the world governments have shown that they tolerate, encourage and practice mutants discrimination, so I think Scott's point has some merit. The right to a due process is very important, and Scott is right when he thinks that a mutant has more chance to receive a due process on Utopia than in the rest of the world.

    What Scott will do if a mutant is arrested is an interesting question. In the mini "Magneto-not an hero", Magneto, after Schism, is accused of numerous murders in USA. Scott brought Magneto to the Avengers mansion to talk with Steve and Tony. In the end Scott and Steve have agreed that Scott had few day to figure out what's going on, otherwise Scott will have to take care of Magneto. This indicates that Scott will search first a diplomatic solution. But if a diplomatic solution will be not possible, what will he do? Personally, I think it will depend if he is convinced that the mutant will receive a due process or not.

    At the moment this letter doesn't seem to worsen the relationship between mutants and Avengers or the rest of the world: the street team is cooperating with the San Francisco police; the extinction team is cooperating with SWORD and one of its member is now an Avengers; Scott, Emma and Magneto were invited at the Avengers Academy; Steve gave Scott time to handle the situation in "Magneto - not a hero"; goverment employees gave the go ahead to a new mutants school. Maybe they all are thinking Scott is bluffing. Or the hero community think that Scott has good reason to do so.
    He said humanity cannot judge or imprison mutants. If you can't do either of those things, then what exactly are they supposed to do when a mutant is commiting a crime? Write them a ticket?

    As far as Scott's letter worsening mutant relations... we'll see. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I still think Utopia has "Crash and burn" written all over it.

  14. #74
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As bad as genocides and holocausts are, Galactus eating the planet would be worse. But no one gives a dam if the X-men didn't show up to help stop him. Nor should they.

    The X-Men for the most part sat out Civil War, and no one really complained about that. The X-Men had their own problems to deal with, and that's fine... the heroes understood that. Just as most of the X-men (except Emma) realize that if the Avengers aren't showing up to help the X-men, it's probably due to them having other things to deal with too.

    That's just how things work in the marvel universe. Not every super hero will show up to help every other super hero when there's a problem. There are PLENTY of things which have happened which Emma hasn't shown up to help stop too. And that's fine.
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Avengers work for one of the main dangers to the mutant community, and at least one provides weapons to that enemy. There is a difference between not helping someone against an enemy and working for that enemy.

    The Avengers work for the most dangerous enemy that the mutants have, And even when they see that enemy acting evilly with their own eyes, in person, ignore that evil.

    There is an old saying the enemy of my enemy is my fried, but the reverse applies the friend of my enemy is my enemy.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    He said humanity cannot judge or imprison mutants. If you can't do either of those things, then what exactly are they supposed to do when a mutant is commiting a crime? Write them a ticket?
    What is the alternative to Scott position? Let Mutants be routinely be murdered under the pretext of law as is common in the MU version of the US? There are just a couple of hundred of them with no reliable support even just political of moral support, they can't avoid to let that number go down just to avoid offending evil governments.
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