Grant Morrisson has some more thoughts on Wonder Woman

[americanwonder]

What I meant was that it is telling as far as so many of these discussions go. There seem to be people who are willing to see these subjects dissected, and those who are completely opposed to it, because they feel the book will suddenly be Wonder-Tarot. There often seems to be little middle ground.

Speaking only for myself and from my experience. I say there seems to be little middle ground because so often the comics themselves can't find a middle ground. Sorry, but when it comes to sexuality, especially female sexuality, comics are crap.

It doens't have to be that way. And there are a few exceptions, of course, most noteably, imo, Strangers in Paradise (which I love).

Just saying, I don't think I'm a tad gun-shy on the subject for no reason at all. It's not paranoid if it's true, right?

[AaronJ]

Speaking only for myself and from my experience. I say there seems to be little middle ground because so often the comics themselves can't find a middle ground. Sorry, but when it comes to sexuality, especially female sexuality, comics are crap.

It doens't have to be that way. And there are a few exceptions, of course, most noteably, imo, Strangers in Paradise (which I love).

Just saying, I don't think I'm a tad gun-shy on the subject for no reason at all. It's not paranoid if it's true, right?

I don't think it's so much that sexuality is dealt with poorly as it is that relationships are dealt with poorly.

[americanwonder]

I don't think it's so much that sexuality is dealt with poorly as it is that relationships are dealt with poorly.

Totally agree on this. The sexuality is really a small portion of the larger problem with relationships in general. That's why I don't really get on the "WW needs more romance" train; I have little hope it would be done well ("well" being subject to my interpretation, of course ).

[AaronJ]

Totally agree on this. The sexuality is really a small portion of the larger problem with relationships in general. That's why I don't really get on the "WW needs more romance" train; I have little hope it would be done well ("well" being subject to my interpretation, of course ).

I think Diana definitely needs something happening in her life other than punching monsters. Romance would be a good idea, AFAIC. But it's just as easy to write punching monsters poorly, too.

The problem, I think, is that a lot of readers of super-hero comics have little patience for "lovey-dovey" stuff, and therefore writers lose interest as well, quickly.

One of the reasons I like the Flash comic so much right now (other than Manapul's insanely awesome art) is that Barry has an actual relationship with an actual woman, and that relationship plays a part in the stories. And Iris is just cool.

I also don't believe that because something has been done poorly in the past by however many different people, that it somehow means we shouldn't try it now in the present. The chance of failure doesn't preclude the possibility of success.

[T Hedge Coke]

It doens't have to be that way. And there are a few exceptions, of course, most noteably, imo, Strangers in Paradise (which I love).

I like SiP, but I wouldn't have pinned it here. Actually, I would have probably veered towards comics written by women, actually. Sexuality - as a drive and perspective - I'd say Moto Hagio writes (and draws) it more honestly and elegantly, than anyone else in comics.

But, yes, an examination of Morrison's actual body of work should demonstrate that he can use sexuality to enhance a story, to help craft a character, without being salacious or immature. Bruce Wayne and casual sex, treated positively but not in hurrhurr Batman scores! ways? The Thing sublimating eros into brutality or Human Torch making himself feel special/beautiful by a combination of enthrallment at women and a belittling them. Kill Your Boyfriend's exaggerated arrested adolescence, including the "empowered barbarian woman" bit, or everything that happened with "Dark" Mary Marvel being the work of "a leering old pervert." The entire Jackie/King Mob thing in The Invisibles, from her "quit being mean to me because your girlfriend didn't sleep with you today" to his weird fictional fantasy version where they're written as twincest to be cooler and closer.

[americanwonder]

I also don't believe that because something has been done poorly in the past by however many different people, that it somehow means we shouldn't try it now in the present. The chance of failure doesn't preclude the possibility of success.

Very true. But possibility and probability are very different things. I can win the lotto, but it's not a sound retirement plan.

I'm for Diana having a life. I'm just not overly confident any romance isn't going to be more painful than not to read (and not painful in a good, heartbroken story sort of way either - just painful, ala Tom).

That's not to say it shouldn't ever be attempted. As you point out, it can add so much to a story. I love Lois in All-Star Superman, for instance. And going back to Strangers in Paradise, I found myself skimming the adventure side of the story, so that I could get back to the yummy-rich-dark chocolatey-goodness of the relationships.

But, I do wish that more comics writers did a better job with this stuff. And I wouldn't put this on the readers losing interest fast. I honestly think most comic writers lack the skill set to write quality relationships, mainly because it's not the focus, and thus, not where they concentrate their time and attention. It is much easier to write a punch in the face.

[OldSchoolfan]

No, it was not meant as a personal argument, though I can see now that I should have phrased it better. My apologies.

What I meant was that it is telling as far as so many of these discussions go. There seem to be people who are willing to see these subjects dissected, and those who are completely opposed to it, because they feel the book will suddenly be Wonder-Tarot. There often seems to be little middle ground.

That's all I was trying to get at. And again, I apologize. I really should have been more clear.

Heh.
Well, I think that any honest assessment of Morrison's work would dispel that notion. OK, there's the Filth. But still ... :)

Thanks. I appreciate the conversation even more now. I have read all of your posts/responses with T. Hedge and its an interesting exchange of ideas.

Because I am a big believer in letting an authors work speak for itself, I am willing to give Morrison the benefit of the doubt and let him try what it was that he suggests BUT, I think T. Hedge points out some warning signs within the authors body of work that suggest it wouldn't be all that balanced. (The Mary Marvel example is the one I immediately thought of.)

I guess it's my desire to see really well written Wonder Woman stories that gives me pause....I see your point about trying to establish which attribute is greater than another and I think its something to consider. You also recognize that we don't often get into conversations about Batman or Superman's sexuality....I think the fact that Wonder Woman is female has some bearing on this....

[AaronJ]

I guess it's my desire to see really well written Wonder Woman stories that gives me pause....I see your point about trying to establish which attribute is greater than another and I think its something to consider. You also recognize that we don't often get into conversations about Batman or Superman's sexuality....I think the fact that Wonder Woman is female has some bearing on this....

Well, as has been talked about, Morrison talked about -- in almost EVERY interview -- how he wanted to bring back the Batman that was the "hairy-chested love god." And people do discuss Batman's love life all the time; should he be with Selina? What the heck is going with Talia? Etc.

And Superman's married. And married people don't have sex, as we all know, so there's nothing to discuss! ;)

I think the reason that Diana's sexuality keeps coming up is because it's totally ignored. If you leave a hole in a story for long enough, people want to fill it themselves.

Just have the poor girl get laid a few times. There would be an initial uproar, then eventually over time people would just stop talking about it.

[Wildcathuntress]

Well, as has been talked about, Morrison talked about -- in almost EVERY interview -- how he wanted to bring back the Batman that was the "hairy-chested love god." And people do discuss Batman's love life all the time; should he be with Selina? What the heck is going with Talia? Etc.

And Superman's married. And married people don't have sex, as we all know, so there's nothing to discuss! ;)

I think the reason that Diana's sexuality keeps coming up is because it's totally ignored. If you leave a hole in a story for long enough, people want to fill it themselves.

Just have the poor girl get laid a few times. There would be an initial uproar, then eventually over time people would just stop talking about it.

Selina will never marry him, she may nail his ass and break his heart (like if he had one) eventually again but that's all she can give, i think Talia probably drug and rape him right ? Isn't she Damian's mother ?

Married people don't have sex ? In which planet do you live ? Prudish Southern Belt Hell ? Great Lakes Gulags and Salt Mines Co. ? Buckingham's Palace ? You made me really concerned about you Mr. Reynolds, seriously.

[AaronJ]

Selina will never marry him, she may nail his ass and break his heart (like if he had one) eventually again but that's all she can give, i think Talia probably drug and rape him right ? Isn't she Damian's mother ?

Married people don't have sex ? In which planet do you live ? Prudish Southern Belt Hell ? Great Lakes Gulags and Salt Mines Co. ? Buckingham's Palace ? You made me really concerned about you Mr. Reynolds, seriously.

It was a joke. :) It's a common one, actually.

And my point was that people do talk about Bruce's sex life. So, it's not like it's some subject that never comes up.

[benicio127]

I mean, strip that kind of silly, sexy fun out of it and you get what J.M.S. has been giving us.

Which is ironic, because isn't that what he wanted to add? Instead he's "job complete!" in less than five full issues.

[Stu]

Yeah, I haven't got a clue what the deal is with Diana's sex life. Is she a virgin? Is she not a virgin? The Nemesis relationship didn't help because that was all so formalised and such I'm not really sure how far they two got with each other and if she never went through that process before, how much of her previous relationships are still canon?
Btw, here's a video I like that talks about how Marston's philosophies went into the character and the effect it had on Diana's sexuality:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...rld-Is-Waiting

[T Hedge Coke]

T. Hedge points out some warning signs within the authors body of work that suggest it wouldn't be all that balanced. (The Mary Marvel example is the one I immediately thought of.)

The point of that part of Final Crisis was that there was nothing wrong with Mary Marvel, though. That it took a "leering old man" to pervert her into an idiotic caricature of sex and youthful rebellion.

By the end of FC, it's fixed and she's back to being proper Mary Marvel (because, hopefully, we've learned the lesson).

[OldSchoolfan]

The point of that part of Final Crisis was that there was nothing wrong with Mary Marvel, though. That it took a "leering old man" to pervert her into an idiotic caricature of sex and youthful rebellion.

By the end of FC, it's fixed and she's back to being proper Mary Marvel (because, hopefully, we've learned the lesson).

Yet, was the point Morrison was making worth what I percieved as great damage to the character?

And of course, the deeper issue is, who is the audience? When you deal with issues like this, you have to take that into consideration....I am not sure if Morrisson thinks about who the audience is all of the time. My perception, and I am the first to admit I could be wrong, is that he isn't writing for all ages...which is fine except that it is possible to deal with this topics...its just more difficult. An example of an All ages book dealing with relationship topics was Thor: The Mighty Avenger. The book worked on all levels for a wide audience. I would like to have thought that DC's big event: Final Crisis would have wanted to include new readers....because all of its predecessors did...the Silver Age Justice League Crisis stories, Wolfman/Perez Crisis....any way...right now, even in its current form Wonder Woman could be read by a 12 year old and enjoyed.....when you start dealing with these topics, especially if you want to do them well, I think you have to put some time and thought into how it all is handled.

If Morrison is talking about handling the character in a Mature Readers book...well, ofcourse he has a lot more latitude. My impression was that he was talking about dealing with this in the regular series.

[AaronJ]

Yet, was the point Morrison was making worth what I percieved as great damage to the character?

And of course, the deeper issue is, who is the audience? When you deal with issues like this, you have to take that into consideration....I am not sure if Morrisson thinks about who the audience is all of the time. My perception, and I am the first to admit I could be wrong, is that he isn't writing for all ages...which is fine except that it is possible to deal with this topics...its just more difficult. An example of an All ages book dealing with relationship topics was Thor: The Mighty Avenger. The book worked on all levels for a wide audience. I would like to have thought that DC's big event: Final Crisis would have wanted to include new readers....because all of its predecessors did...the Silver Age Justice League Crisis stories, Wolfman/Perez Crisis....any way...right now, even in its current form Wonder Woman could be read by a 12 year old and enjoyed.....when you start dealing with these topics, especially if you want to do them well, I think you have to put some time and thought into how it all is handled.

If Morrison is talking about handling the character in a Mature Readers book...well, ofcourse he has a lot more latitude. My impression was that he was talking about dealing with this in the regular series.

As to including new readers, no way. Now, I think a lot has been made about how FC is "confusing" and the like, and most of it is hogwash. But it definitely requires prior knowledge to grasp some of the thematic content, to know why a character's fate or actions are important and what they say in a larger context, and the like.

As to "mature readers" content, I can't really think of any of Morrison's work in the DCU (so, I'm not talking about stuff like "The Filth") that isn't appropriate for anyone for which ... say ... Green Lantern or Batman is appropriate. I can think of things which might not appeal to younger readers (as if there are any -- but that's a different question), but as far as being appropriate?

Take anything from JLA to Doom Patrol to Animal Man to Seven Soldiers to Final Crisis to Batman ... none of that is inappropriate. Again, unappealing? Maybe; it depends on the reader.

Mary's character arc in FC, as far as I can tell, was primarily symbolic, as is most of FC. Sure things happen, and there's a plot, and a story, and characters do things, etc. But it mostly exists on a meta-level. At least for me.

And what "damage" was done to the character? How is she somehow lessened or hurt as a character by the end?