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  1. #16

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    this corporate vs indie argument will soon be moot

    digital distribution ftw!

  2. #17
    the bandit diablo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Name_Killer View Post
    You're absolutely right Mr. Aaron, its not about Mainstream vs Creator Owned, its about diversity and not just pushing superhero comics to the forefront. I think creators can do work for the big 2 and still do their creator owned work at the same time(a lot of them do nowadays). I hope people take your words to heart, i mean why can't i love Wolverine and Morning Glories at the same time?
    He's right if that's what the video was about but it wasn't. Its not a us against them type of message. Its about people being able to create stories outside of the super-hero genre and make a living at it. The guys that are talking about creator owned comics and diversity in comics have worked for marvel and dc. We need a new alan moore interview so people can get his points wrong again.

  3. #18

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    I liked comic books. Now we have 'Graphic Novels'. Pretending to be mature but actually trapped in a Peter Pan adolescence of sex and violence, not so different from main stream media.

  4. #19
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    I think the easiest thing to do isn't to play the "Fuck the Man," card but to work on established corporate properties instead of striking out on your own.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Steve Broome's Avatar
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    I will always maintain that a dagger through the heart of creator-owned non-superhero books was Madureira's inability to put out Battle Chasers consistently. IT was a genre no one thought could be viable (Fantasy) in an American market, and it exploded, but he just wasn't able to get the book out.

  6. #21
    Thread Ender RedRonin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scab View Post
    "So here I was being raped, and I didn't even know it."

    Y'know, why not keep this type of shock-value hyperbole in your comics and out of your columns?

    It reeks of trying too hard and poor-man's Ennis is so 1999.
    There's no hyperbole in Aaron's statement. That's exactly what Powell had in his video. A creator who had to turn to the a corporation to make ends meet, then he got raped.

    Someone was trying too hard and it wasn't Aaron.
    "RR your powers of Observation are Godlike." - RolandJP

  7. #22
    Steven Willis nyrdyv's Avatar
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    How 'bout just concentrating on making product that the public wants to purchase? Making comic books is, unfortunately, a business to most involved. To be successful, make product that sells itself to the public or which you can manage to market fiscally successfully for sales.

    I know this sounds a tad cold. But, this is a business.


    Cheers!

    Steven G. Willis
    <a href="http://www.xowcomics.com/">XOWComics.com</a>

  8. #23
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    So are all non-DCU Vertigo books creator-owned? I have heard otherwise.

  9. #24
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    "We're an industry of outsiders" - this is exactly how the film industry pitched its transition from the studio system to the current 'independent production' arrangement in the late 1950s/early 1960s. Unfortunately for most, the wondrous visions of unfettered creativity and flexibility that accompanied "independent production" eventually fell flat on their face. However, comic book publishing has a lot lower barriers to entry than filmmaking. Maybe the 'creative workers' have more power than directors, screenwriters, and the like have in film.

  10. #25
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    Wolverine and the Goon are both awesome (not so keen on Scalped), but I'm not convinced it's "completely off-base" to say "corporate comics are developed by heartless execs" when in general popular characters have no character growth over time as the basics need to stay the same for marketing?
    Like I say I'm enjoying both so no complaints here !

  11. #26
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    2 points that were ignored in this article, and in this thread so far:

    The indy vs mainstream is not about "f**k the man". It is about how the corporate environment of Marvel and DC does has a stifling effect on creativity. To say that Eric Powell and others simply want to "f**k the man" is an incredibly oversimplified argument

    Secondly, Marvel and DC do constantly engage in practices to dominate sales. It is not enough for Aaron to say "people just want to buy superheroes right now". By constantly engaging in events and "death of this guy" gimmicks, Marvel and DC do flood the market. In any industry, when you flood the market like this - it will help squeeze the little guy out

    Interesting that Aaron left these things out of his article

  12. #27
    the bandit diablo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRonin View Post
    There's no hyperbole in Aaron's statement. That's exactly what Powell had in his video. A creator who had to turn to the a corporation to make ends meet, then he got raped.

    Someone was trying too hard and it wasn't Aaron.
    You missed the point in the video too. The guy wasn't raped, he whored himself out to work on a super hero book to make ends meet.

  13. #28

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    I mainly read Vertigo stuff when I was getting back into comics in the late 90's after drifting away from them for a few years and have always been kind of dumbfounded by the amount of people who just read superhero stuff and rarely anything else.

    Yes, there may be good stuff out there but it's like limiting yourself to only watching Westerns or something when there's loads of other genres out there.

    You may say "superheroes are what sell" but just because something is popular doesn't mean it's the best on offer. Using the argument "the public get what they want" is usually because of laziness on behalf of the public. Rather than seek out the good stuff they settle for what's easiest to find i.e. the mass-produced familiar superheroes. It's more a case of "the public want what the public get" as The Jam said, simply because they don't know any better.

    The most popular programs on TV these days are terrible reality shows and talent competitions. Does that make them the best? Should TV companies decide "this is what they want" and never try to do anything like The Sopranos again?

    Sites like this are full of information about great indie creators and their Top 100 countdown was full of a huge variety of books but of course people complained that there wasn't enough superhero stuff in it!

    I've said it before but superhero books are kind of the soap operas of the comic world. People get hooked on the characters and follow them year in year out even if there is a drop in quality because they have kind of become addicted the same way people watch soap operas even when they know they aren't that great.

    I know this cos I began buying X-Men when Grant Morrison started writing it. It was the first superhero monthly I had ever collected. I am still buying it today even though it has never reached the heights of Grant's stuff as far as I'm concerned. I've become attached to the characters and I now buy Uncanny X-Men too and have recently got sucked into crossovers that I didn't enjoy and have become very pissed of at wasting money on big event books when I could have been supporting an independent creator or you know, reading something good.

  14. #29
    No Kings, No Queens Name_Killer's Avatar
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    Like i said, a lot of creators do mainstream books and their creator owned titles on the side. Most creators who whine about Marvel and DC worked for them at one time or another and thats how most of us first heard about them. I had no idea who Robert Kirkman was till his run on Ultimate X-Men and now i read Invincible and will give Super Dinosaur a try.

    I mean who doesn't read Spider-Man as a kid and dreams of being able to draw or write him? The economy plays a huge factor right now, a lot of creators are playing it a little safer right now and when you have a family to support, that takes precedence over everything else. Ultimately if you don't like whats going on then get in the game and change things. The Starters makes a difference not the guys on the sidelines.
    "IN THE JAWS OF THE LORDS OF DEATH"
    "Heres my dowry for medusa hopefully she'll take my ring and be my bride"

  15. #30
    No Kings, No Queens Name_Killer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keilthetarheel View Post
    2 points that were ignored in this article, and in this thread so far:

    The indy vs mainstream is not about "f**k the man". It is about how the corporate environment of Marvel and DC does has a stifling effect on creativity. To say that Eric Powell and others simply want to "f**k the man" is an incredibly oversimplified argument

    Secondly, Marvel and DC do constantly engage in practices to dominate sales. It is not enough for Aaron to say "people just want to buy superheroes right now". By constantly engaging in events and "death of this guy" gimmicks, Marvel and DC do flood the market. In any industry, when you flood the market like this - it will help squeeze the little guy out

    Interesting that Aaron left these things out of his article
    Marvel and DC are businesses, so are Image, IDW, Darkhorse, Boom, Red 5 and Dynamite, they want to make good comics as well as make money. If any Independent company had characters as beloved as the ones Marvel and DC have they'd do the exact same things and "flood" the market. None of these companies are any different form the next one, if any of them had the chance to be a monopoly they'd take it in a heartbeat. I promise you all those companies would love to be where Marvel and DC are right now(i mean they didn't do it overnight, it took 75 years)
    "IN THE JAWS OF THE LORDS OF DEATH"
    "Heres my dowry for medusa hopefully she'll take my ring and be my bride"

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