Ultimate Sales Discussions

[MarvelMaster616]

This is true, the example of TV is a bad one, so you are right there. But the comparison with football you use isn't in your favor. A record keeps track of people's performance. It even takes into account injury and explains why a player's yardage was low, less wins, etc. Sales can't be compared to a football record. But when it comes to print, it is just not the same.

I cant stress this enough... Ahem...

The. Printed. Word. Is. A. Dying. Medium.

Its obvious people lost interest in Ultimate. The sales reflected that in 2005-2007. Loeb and Marvel concocted Ultimatum to garner interest. It didn't work. No one here who are still fans is denying that.

In the midst of this event was an economic downturn. People start dropping books. Ultimate is dropped some more because of an unimpressive event on top of that. Newspapers are going out of business. Magazines are going out of business. Comics sales for every title everywhere are low ((20-50%))

You are not wrong. ((I know you like the sound of that ))

But there is always more to it. Sales dropped because people lost interest? Initially, yes. Totally!

But after that, with the entire print media service in trouble, no one can make nor prove that argument and expect to be taken seriously. In january Amazing Spiderman #652 sold 50,052. Ouch. Ultimate spiderman #152 sold 33,481. Also ouch. And Wolverine #5, the supposed fan favorite around here, only sold 46,920. These are 3 books that sold almost double the amount regularly 5 years ago. The top selling book was FF4 #587 at 115, 448. 10 years ago I guarantee the sales for the last issue of "The first Family" wouldve sold at least 200,000 issues easy. But compared to the entire industry, they're all still doing fine.

I agree that print is dying, which makes me all the more crazy because it makes a great case for day-and-date digital release for ALL comics and not just minis. However, I didn't mention numbers alone. There's also rank. Look up March 2003. That month had four Ultimate books in the top ten including Ultimate X-men. No Ultimate book has cracked the top ten since and many have declined to the point where they're no better than they were before Ultimatum. Now I'm sure Death of Spider-man will boost sales like it did for Fantastic Four. Death does that, but it's a gimmick. We all know how gimmicks work in that they're temporary. And to me if Marvel is relying on killing beloved characters like Spider-Man and those that were killed in Ultimatum, then they're running out of ideas.

Just deleted my post. I dont feel like arguing over such a tired subject we've all been over a million times.

I read what I read, you read what you read. I come here to discuss what I enjoy, I dont go around trying to ruin people's excitement over a book.

See, when I explain myself I try to use relevant analogies, not crude humor. I usually appreciate that kind of levity, but not when I was attempting to have a serious discussion. I say good day to you sir. And good luck in your endeavors and such.

You're giving me way too much power. I don't have the ability to ruin anybody's excitement over anything. The only power I have is crafting dirty metaphors that involve poop jokes, animal cruelty, and drug references. That's not enough to change anybody's mind. I don't just use them to get a cheap laugh. I use them to make a point. Some of your points are valid. I'm open to discussing them, but if you don't care to I understand. I have my opinions and you have yours. I'll defend mind and you can defend yours if you want. It's up to you and at the end of the day it doesn't amount to a third of a lump of a squirrel turd floating around in bong water. You see? I used all three that time! It helps make a point or it's good for a cheap laugh.

[Plawsky]

If you know football you've heard the saying "you are what your record says you are." When one Ultimate X-books grossly outsells another by a wide margin, it's not a trivial error.

If the football saying is true for comics, then Bendis is without a doubt the best writer of the decade, Green Lantern is the best book on the shelves right now, and Deadpool is a better book than Shield. Yes, quality helps sales, but it is not the only driver. Walking Dead managed to hit it big, but so many other books that are almost unanimously considered fantastic works (Fables, Invincible, etc) don't perform well at all on the charts.

I'm not arguing that Ultimate X is better than Ultimate X-Men volume 1, because I don't think it is. But I think it's actually pretty close, and it's got potential to be just as good for me.

Again, if it were the other way around you would be shoving that in my face like George Michaels in a gas station bathroom off the Jersey Turnpike. Say what you will about the market, but ignore the numbers for a minute and note one other aspect. Ultimate X-men #5 was the top selling book overall that month. Ultimate X #1 never got higher than 16 and has been dropping ever since.

You're also comparing books that exist in two completely different markets. There are so many things different about the comic industry now than in 2001, especially in relation to the Ultimate Universe. Rather than comparing it to the early years of UXM, why not compare Ultimate X to what came right before it? At the time of the last issue's publication, it was actually selling better than the previous 20 issues had been doing on average. Yes, it dropped readers quickly, but I can only compare the data we have, and that was the first three issues. We'll see how #4 does.

One contains the characters that X-men fans know and love. The other contains cheap knock-offs, replacements, and recycled plots. Is it really so surprising that one outsold the other by a wide margin both in terms of raw numbers and rank?

So then it shouldn't be surprising that UXM sold better. For a load of reasons, Ultimate X shouldn't be selling well - it is full of unknown characters, it's written by an author who is past his prime, and it comes after a fan-alienating event.

Also, Ultimate X-men remained a top ten book well into 2003. Ultimate X isn't even in the top 30 anymore and that's after only three issues.

Considering that Ultimate X is essentially the continuation of UXM, I don't see why it would be a top 10 book, since the last seven years of UXM weren't top 10 books.

It doesn't matter where the story in Ultimate X is going. If too few people give less than half a bag a dog crap about it you could write the thing using Scarlet Johanssen's pubic hair and it wouldn't make a difference.

What constitutes "enough people" for you?

And unlike 2001-2005, Ultimate X has much stiffer competition from 616. Back then only New X-men and Uncanny were the top selling X-books. Now there's Uncanny, Astonishing, Uncanny X-Force (a book that topped the charts one month), Generation Hope, X-men Legacy, Wolverine (also was the number one book for a month), X-23, and the new adjectiveless X-men (another book that was the top seller for a month).

When Ultimate X last came out:
It outsold EVERY Wolverine title.
It sold only 400 less copies than the Astonishing miniseries.
It outsold the Hellbound mini that was a tie-in with Second Coming.
It FAR outsold Claremont's Forever books.

Sure, it was outsold by the core 616 titles. But so what? I'll say it again - that's not losing for Marvel. If 5,000 readers left Uncanny X-Men for Ultimate X, they would gain absolutely nothing. And there are still several mutant books that Marvel puts out that sold well less than Ultimate X. In fact, this past month, the main Ultimate books outsold:

Wolverine 1000
X-23
Generation Hope
New Mutants
X-Factor

And Ultimate X has the misfortune of being in a universe where many of the top name characters that actually sell a lot of books like Wolverine, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Magneto, and Professor X have been horribly butchered. If you gave it to a casual X-men fan, they probably wouldn't care as much about it as they would books where the characters they know haven't been maimed. Ultimate X hasn't done anything special other than throw lousy half-hearted replacement characters into a story along with equally lousy art.

Ultimate X isn't meant to be a book to replace all other X-Men books. X-Factor doesn't offer anything for a casual X-Men fan either. So why the hell do they publish it?

Of course most people here wouldn't say the 616 Avengers book is good. This is an Ultimate board! That's going to skew the opinions, don't you think?

By "here" I actually meant CBR in general. Though, I'd imagine Ultimate fans would probably like it more than the normal Avengers board member, since we tend to like Bendis more, obviously. That said, I'm one of the many who definitely think it's a subpar book.

[Agemoi]

I agree that print is dying, which makes me all the more crazy because it makes a great case for day-and-date digital release for ALL comics and not just minis. However, I didn't mention numbers alone. There's also rank. Look up March 2003. That month had four Ultimate books in the top ten including Ultimate X-men. No Ultimate book has cracked the top ten since and many have declined to the point where they're no better than they were before Ultimatum. Now I'm sure Death of Spider-man will boost sales like it did for Fantastic Four. Death does that, but it's a gimmick. We all know how gimmicks work in that they're temporary. And to me if Marvel is relying on killing beloved characters like Spider-Man and those that were killed in Ultimatum, then they're running out of ideas.



You're giving me way too much power. I don't have the ability to ruin anybody's excitement over anything. The only power I have is crafting dirty metaphors that involve poop jokes, animal cruelty, and drug references. That's not enough to change anybody's mind. I don't just use them to get a cheap laugh. I use them to make a point. Some of your points are valid. I'm open to discussing them, but if you don't care to I understand. I have my opinions and you have yours. I'll defend mind and you can defend yours if you want. It's up to you and at the end of the day it doesn't amount to a third of a lump of a squirrel turd floating around in bong water. You see? I used all three that time! It helps make a point or it's good for a cheap laugh.

Ah I thought I deleted that in time! Lol. I feel like we're always repeating ourselves here. Honestly, after re-reading my message it just came across as hot air on my part so i tried to just let it go and be done with it.

And hey, trust me, I love crude humor! I just can't make it work in my favor in a discussion about comic sales

I'm totally open for healthy discussion, I just feel like Scylla fighting Charybdis when it comes to why the sales look the way they do. What's funny is that we're both right. All comic sales are dropping by no fault of the overall quality, but Ultimate did take a decently hard drop so it has to say something, especially when you're not the only one who feels the way that you do. Ultimatum was trying to open the door for ultimate to be its own beast, but it has yet to take advantage of that, at least until DoSM occurs. It killed off a lot of characters and a lot of fans decided to stick to 616 where something like that wouldnt happen.

616 got it's act together again so readers decided to migrate back too. I still stick by ultimate till I'm blue in the face just because I honestly love the potential for growth here that 616 just can't satisfy yet.

But it is what it is. I think I just wished people could enjoy the universe as much as i am

[Agemoi]

But hey, it looks like Ultimate Spidey's sales numbers are bouncing back, 43,986, and 43, 209. Not too bad. I am surprised to see Doom and Captain America so low though.

[MarvelMaster616]

If the football saying is true for comics, then Bendis is without a doubt the best writer of the decade, Green Lantern is the best book on the shelves right now, and Deadpool is a better book than Shield. Yes, quality helps sales, but it is not the only driver. Walking Dead managed to hit it big, but so many other books that are almost unanimously considered fantastic works (Fables, Invincible, etc) don't perform well at all on the charts.

I'm not arguing that Ultimate X is better than Ultimate X-Men volume 1, because I don't think it is. But I think it's actually pretty close, and it's got potential to be just as good for me.

I never said there wasn't a context. There is. Books like Fable and Invincible are lesser known and have a more limited fanbase. We're talking about the Ultimate universe here and Marvel's A-list cast of characters. When you put Ultimate X up against other X-men books as well as the pre-Ultimatum Ultimate X-men series, there is a contrast and you can draw conclusions from it. Right now Ultimate X isn't selling as well as Ultimate X-men did in it's final days and hasn't done nearly as well as other main X-books like Uncanny, Legacy, adjectiveless, Wolverine or X-Force.

You're also comparing books that exist in two completely different markets. There are so many things different about the comic industry now than in 2001, especially in relation to the Ultimate Universe. Rather than comparing it to the early years of UXM, why not compare Ultimate X to what came right before it? At the time of the last issue's publication, it was actually selling better than the previous 20 issues had been doing on average. Yes, it dropped readers quickly, but I can only compare the data we have, and that was the first three issues. We'll see how #4 does.

From issues 1 to #94 of Ultimate X-men, the worst it did was around 50k. Ultimate X #1 was around 59k and two issues later, it's down to around 40k. So in just two issues it's lower than it's predecessor. It never even cracked the top ten, which it's predecessor did during it's early run and years after it. For a book that's brand new, it hasn't garnered much appeal. The only news it's been able to get is how heavily delayed it is.

So then it shouldn't be surprising that UXM sold better. For a load of reasons, Ultimate X shouldn't be selling well - it is full of unknown characters, it's written by an author who is past his prime, and it comes after a fan-alienating event.

Exactly, it's a sham of a book. It's akin to the maggots chewing away at the corpse of the dead body. Some like those maggots. Some even think they're cute. Doesn't change the fact they're eating a corpse, that corpse being the Ultimate X-men.

Considering that Ultimate X is essentially the continuation of UXM, I don't see why it would be a top 10 book, since the last seven years of UXM weren't top 10 books.

It was starting over. It was a #1. It was Jeph Loeb and Art Adams (whose appeal I can't get). It went down faster than Courtney Love at a police station.

When Ultimate X last came out:
It outsold EVERY Wolverine title.
It sold only 400 less copies than the Astonishing miniseries.
It outsold the Hellbound mini that was a tie-in with Second Coming.
It FAR outsold Claremont's Forever books.

The Wolverine series was getting ready for a reboot. Astonishing was a mini-series. Hellbound was a mini as well. And X-men Forever flat out sucked in addition to having horribly limited appeal. EVERY X-book outsold Forever. Saying a book is better than X-men Forever is akin to saying your poop is slightly less rank.

Sure, it was outsold by the core 616 titles. But so what? I'll say it again - that's not losing for Marvel. If 5,000 readers left Uncanny X-Men for Ultimate X, they would gain absolutely nothing. And there are still several mutant books that Marvel puts out that sold well less than Ultimate X. In fact, this past month, the main Ultimate books outsold:

Wolverine 1000
X-23
Generation Hope
New Mutants
X-Factor

Again, these aren't core books. You say that's not a fair comparison. I respectfully disagree. Ultimate is structured as a re-branding of 616. When all the Ultimate titles came out (before and after Ultimatum) they're written as alternatives to 616. Ultimate X is the default X-book. It's the only X-book Ultimate has. 616 has core books with a lot of off-shoots. You can't compare X to the off-shots. That's like comparing your arm strength to a 7-year-old and not an adult of equal height and weight. As it stands, 616 X-men is overshadowing Ultimate X in every way and rightfully so. Ultimate X is full of rip-offs, replacements, and recycled plots. It deserves to sell less. It deserves far worse in my opinion.

Ultimate X isn't meant to be a book to replace all other X-Men books. X-Factor doesn't offer anything for a casual X-Men fan either. So why the hell do they publish it?

You're right. It's not meant to replace the 616 X-books. It's replacing the Ultimate X-men book and not doing a very good job of it. Can we at least agree the delays alone are making this book more frustrating than Ultimate X-men? Say what you will about Ultimate X-men, but it was never this seriously delayed. It's only made Ultimate more in need of a reboot because it's handicapped the entire mutant wing of Ultimate. It used to be Ultimate could give you an entire Marvel universe in just a handful of books. Now it only has a bunch of sub-par minis, one ongoing, and no consistent X-book. It's not even a fourth of a Marvel universe.

[MarvelMaster616]

Ah I thought I deleted that in time! Lol. I feel like we're always repeating ourselves here. Honestly, after re-reading my message it just came across as hot air on my part so i tried to just let it go and be done with it.

And hey, trust me, I love crude humor! I just can't make it work in my favor in a discussion about comic sales

I'm totally open for healthy discussion, I just feel like Scylla fighting Charybdis when it comes to why the sales look the way they do. What's funny is that we're both right. All comic sales are dropping by no fault of the overall quality, but Ultimate did take a decently hard drop so it has to say something, especially when you're not the only one who feels the way that you do. Ultimatum was trying to open the door for ultimate to be its own beast, but it has yet to take advantage of that, at least until DoSM occurs. It killed off a lot of characters and a lot of fans decided to stick to 616 where something like that wouldnt happen.

616 got it's act together again so readers decided to migrate back too. I still stick by ultimate till I'm blue in the face just because I honestly love the potential for growth here that 616 just can't satisfy yet.

But it is what it is. I think I just wished people could enjoy the universe as much as i am

I wish I could enjoy it as well. I just don't like it when I see a series I've spent nearly a decade following get horribly butchered in a way that makes me so sick I want to dive head first into a vat of acid. I'm weird like that. If you can still enjoy it, consider yourself lucky. I still follow Ultimate because like I said, I've been following it for years and I still have hope that something will turn it around. If they end up killing Spider-Man for real in Death of Spider-Man, I hope that leads to a reboot of sorts. It will be just in time for the Ultimate Spider-man cartoon this fall, but then again that's just wishful thinking on my part. I doubt that will happen because Ultimate hasn't reached X-men Forever sales yet. Until it does, fans like you will still be able to enjoy it and fans like me will continue pulling our hair out and banging our heads against the nearest brick wall.

[Agemoi]

I wish I could enjoy it as well. I just don't like it when I see a series I've spent nearly a decade following get horribly butchered in a way that makes me so sick I want to dive head first into a vat of acid. I'm weird like that. If you can still enjoy it, consider yourself lucky. I still follow Ultimate because like I said, I've been following it for years and I still have hope that something will turn it around. If they end up killing Spider-Man for real in Death of Spider-Man, I hope that leads to a reboot of sorts. It will be just in time for the Ultimate Spider-man cartoon this fall, but then again that's just wishful thinking on my part. I doubt that will happen because Ultimate hasn't reached X-men Forever sales yet. Until it does, fans like you will still be able to enjoy it and fans like me will continue pulling our hair out and banging our heads against the nearest brick wall.

Ah too true my friend. I think that's why I have a slight advantage in still enjoying it all: I remember in 2001 marvel put the first issue or 2 of Ultimate Spiderman online and i loved it, but i didnt know how to go about buying comics. It was until early 2007 where I found a comics site and read every single ultimate issue to that point. Then it got shut down so i gladly sought out a comic store and started being a regular costumer. By the time ultimatum happened I was up to date on 7+ years of lore, but I was lucky enough to read it all within months. So I guess since I wasnt an avid reader for most of its existence, I didnt take it as hard as others, so I will gladly admit that I just have an altered, if not skewed view of the ultimate universe.

And, it may not mean much, but you can take my word that Marvel won't be killing off ultimate spiderman for real. Why? Well, it is their best selling ultimate book right now, AND because if they do then I will gladly hop on your maggot infested, Scar-Jo-Pube covered bandwagon and demand a reboot I dont think Marvel could handle 2 people demanding action so vehemently!

If it wasnt for spidey I probably would've dropped the universe as well. He's the character I've loved since I was a little kid. Also that new cartoon better rock ass, considering Bendis and Dini are working on it. Even if it fails I hope it at least has a solid ending, because Spiderman Unlimited and Spectacular Spiderman both ended abruptly with no closure

P.S. if ultimate x 4 and 5 and the DoSM arc do nothing but disappoint, again, I will be in the same boat as you since I've been in this for the 2nd round long haul for a couple years. Marvel needs this next big event to take off.

[MarvelMaster616]

Ah too true my friend. I think that's why I have a slight advantage in still enjoying it all: I remember in 2001 marvel put the first issue or 2 of Ultimate Spiderman online and i loved it, but i didnt know how to go about buying comics. It was until early 2007 where I found a comics site and read every single ultimate issue to that point. Then it got shut down so i gladly sought out a comic store and started being a regular costumer. By the time ultimatum happened I was up to date on 7+ years of lore, but I was lucky enough to read it all within months. So I guess since I wasnt an avid reader for most of its existence, I didnt take it as hard as others, so I will gladly admit that I just have an altered, if not skewed view of the ultimate universe.

And, it may not mean much, but you can take my word that Marvel won't be killing off ultimate spiderman for real. Why? Well, it is their best selling ultimate book right now, AND because if they do then I will gladly hop on your maggot infested, Scar-Jo-Pube covered bandwagon and demand a reboot I dont think Marvel could handle 2 people demanding action so vehemently!

If it wasnt for spidey I probably would've dropped the universe as well. He's the character I've loved since I was a little kid. Also that new cartoon better rock ass, considering Bendis and Dini are working on it. Even if it fails I hope it at least has a solid ending, because Spiderman Unlimited and Spectacular Spiderman both ended abruptly with no closure

P.S. if ultimate x 4 and 5 and the DoSM arc do nothing but disappoint, again, I will be in the same boat as you since I've been in this for the 2nd round long haul for a couple years. Marvel needs this next big event to take off.

Both Spider-Man Unlimited and Spectacular Spider-Man were...incomplete if that's the right word. They didn't have a coherent direction like the 90s cartoon did. It was like a well-trained rat, but there was no cheese at the end of the maze so it just kept running into walls at every turn. I think not having a stable network played a part in that instability. The fact that Ultimate Spider-Man has a stable network in Disney XD that already has Avengers is a good sign. So I believe it will be better. It has to be. The bar on Spider-man cartoons has been pretty low for the past 10 years.

It was the X-men cartoons that did it for me. I'm a longtime X-men fan. That's why my website is X-men Supreme and not Spider-Man Supreme. I loved the cartoon and I loved X-men Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men. Ultimate X-men helped me get back into the X-books and that's why Ultimatum wounded me more than most others. I loved Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimates, and Fantastic Four as well. But Ultimate X-men was my favorite. It hurt almost as much as Wolverine and the X-men getting canceled, but at least the characters weren't horribly slaughtered. I hope that Ultimate Spider-Man leads to more series like Ultimate X-men. I still remember how the 90s series crossed over. I hope they do that again now that all the Marvel cartoons are under Disney.

And if you enjoyed Ultimate X 1-3 and Spider-Man after Ultimatum, I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy whatever comes after it. That's just been my experience. If you made it through Ultimatum, you'll find some way to enjoy the books that came after it. That's why I can expect the same reaction to much of the books on this forum. Pretty much everyone who posts here who doesn't compare the books to dead animals loves them.

So here's my prediction. Your review of Ultimate X #4 will be whatever your review of Ultimate X #3 was. As for Death of Spider-Man, because of the hype I'm pretty sure everyone on this board is going to praise it as if it was written in the blood of the Virgin Mary with Jennifer Lopez's ass as a canvas. That's because as much as we hate to admit it, we do buy into the hype and that does tend to overshadow the objective quality of the book. It's a real thing. I know because I studied it in college in both psychology and public relations. There's really not much Bendis or Loeb can do to make people spit at their respective books at least on this forum. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'm willing to bet my house that those who liked Ultimate X #3 and haven't dropped Spider-Man since Ultimatum will find a reason to praise all future books.

[Agemoi]

Both Spider-Man Unlimited and Spectacular Spider-Man were...incomplete if that's the right word. They didn't have a coherent direction like the 90s cartoon did. It was like a well-trained rat, but there was no cheese at the end of the maze so it just kept running into walls at every turn. I think not having a stable network played a part in that instability. The fact that Ultimate Spider-Man has a stable network in Disney XD that already has Avengers is a good sign. So I believe it will be better. It has to be. The bar on Spider-man cartoons has been pretty low for the past 10 years.

It was the X-men cartoons that did it for me. I'm a longtime X-men fan. That's why my website is X-men Supreme and not Spider-Man Supreme. I loved the cartoon and I loved X-men Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men. Ultimate X-men helped me get back into the X-books and that's why Ultimatum wounded me more than most others. I loved Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimates, and Fantastic Four as well. But Ultimate X-men was my favorite. It hurt almost as much as Wolverine and the X-men getting canceled, but at least the characters weren't horribly slaughtered. I hope that Ultimate Spider-Man leads to more series like Ultimate X-men. I still remember how the 90s series crossed over. I hope they do that again now that all the Marvel cartoons are under Disney.

And if you enjoyed Ultimate X 1-3 and Spider-Man after Ultimatum, I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy whatever comes after it. That's just been my experience. If you made it through Ultimatum, you'll find some way to enjoy the books that came after it. That's why I can expect the same reaction to much of the books on this forum. Pretty much everyone who posts here who doesn't compare the books to dead animals loves them.

So here's my prediction. Your review of Ultimate X #4 will be whatever your review of Ultimate X #3 was. As for Death of Spider-Man, because of the hype I'm pretty sure everyone on this board is going to praise it as if it was written in the blood of the Virgin Mary with Jennifer Lopez's ass as a canvas. That's because as much as we hate to admit it, we do buy into the hype and that does tend to overshadow the objective quality of the book. It's a real thing. I know because I studied it in college in both psychology and public relations. There's really not much Bendis or Loeb can do to make people spit at their respective books at least on this forum. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'm willing to bet my house that those who liked Ultimate X #3 and haven't dropped Spider-Man since Ultimatum will find a reason to praise all future books.

I suspect you're right about Ultimate X#4. I probably will just love it out of relief, but I'm not one to gloat when there's no substance, so I'd definitely be the first to call foul if there's any garbage in there! At least whatever I deem garbage lol

But hey, that's all I needed to hear! I completely understand your point of view. If X-MEN was my baby then I'd probably be right there with you in calling bullshit. That's not to say I don't like X-men though, because they were always right up there for me next to good ol' spidey. After the whole Banshee drug arc I was kind of waning on Ultimate Xmen myself. It just screamed filler. So because of that arc I was shocked when Wolverine was killed, and absolutely mortified when Cyclops was murdered. That panel still gives me chills. I couldnt believe the Xmen would get such a weak arc and then be eradicated.

But it's because of Ultimatum's tragedy ((in every sense)) that I want more Ultimate X. I want to know more about Ultimate Mutants and their situations, and especially what "idea" Wolverine said he had about their "future." I want to see where Rogue, Storm and Colossus are. Honestly, it's curiosity that has me hanging on here. Mutants were at the heart of Ultimatum and the Ultimate universe, and it only makes sense that there is something big brewing there. Especially after the crazy casualty rate of Ultimatum, part of me is hoping that there is a huge pay off. In all honestly, it sounds cheesy, but I guess I'm just hanging on to hope here AND curiosity Plus the idea of Wolverine's offspring fighting for a future is pretty emotional, especially since Wolverine led such a fucked up life and died an incredibly heroic yet gruesome death ((at least to me. better than wasp's )).

I still dont get how Wolverine and the Xmen was cancelled! I wasn't too crazy about the first 3 episodes but Disney XD held a marathon and it was just amazing. I couldnt believe what I was watching. Then the news comes out that Marvel couldn't work out financing with Nickelodeon and they dropped it. Such bull. Make a deal and bring it to Disney XD! Granted the upcoming Xmen Anime looks badass, it could still suck

I just need to see a preview of the Ultimate Spidey show. Something! They announced it, what, a year ago? I assumed it would air holiday 2010 or early 2011, but no. Freaking fall... *sigh*

[Plawsky]

I never said there wasn't a context. There is. Books like Fable and Invincible are lesser known and have a more limited fanbase.

So does Walking Dead, but it took off. My point is that sales don't show quality. Some great books catch on with the greater fan base, but some don't, even though they're well reviewed.

From issues 1 to #94 of Ultimate X-men, the worst it did was around 50k. Ultimate X #1 was around 59k and two issues later, it's down to around 40k. So in just two issues it's lower than it's predecessor.

Likewise, the New Avengers relaunch has been doing TERRIBLE. It's only selling 64k while it was selling 153k in 2005, 90k in 2008, and 78k in 2010. Talk about a downward spiral!

I don't know why I have to keep mentioning this, but you can't compare sales numbers. Because New Avengers has been in the top 10 almost every single month since it came out. Ultimate X-Men averaged #37 for the last 20 issues, and Ultimate X has not yet dropped to that point. Again, it probably will happen, but it hasn't yet.

Again, these aren't core books. You say that's not a fair comparison. I respectfully disagree.

Anything with "Ultimate" on the cover isn't a core book either.

Ultimate is structured as a re-branding of 616. When all the Ultimate titles came out (before and after Ultimatum) they're written as alternatives to 616. Ultimate X is the default X-book. It's the only X-book Ultimate has. 616 has core books with a lot of off-shoots. You can't compare X to the off-shots.

Yes, it's an alternative. So which is more likely to be the top seller - the main Universe that has been around for 50 years or the universe that receives almost no marketing and no longer has the novelty it once did? There's absolutely no reason why Ultimate books should be outselling their 616 counterparts.

It used to be Ultimate could give you an entire Marvel universe in just a handful of books. Now it only has a bunch of sub-par minis, one ongoing, and no consistent X-book. It's not even a fourth of a Marvel universe.

What does that even mean? How is it not a whole Marvel Universe? And beyond that, what DOES qualify as an entire Marvel Universe? Even at its current status, the UU is just as big as, if not bigger than, any other alternate U has ever been.

But I'm willing to bet my house that those who liked Ultimate X #3 and haven't dropped Spider-Man since Ultimatum will find a reason to praise all future books.

What if that reason is because we LIKE the books? I agree that some people will jump on a bandwagon, but there are bigger bandwagons to jump on than the Ultimate U. You can't just discredit people's opinions as being fabricated; that's not how it works. And as far as "objective quality" goes (even though there's really no such thing as objective quality), people often talk about why they like these Ultimate books, and I'm sure they'll do the same when future books come out.

[Wolverine12]

That's a lot of long posts.

[MarvelMaster616]

So does Walking Dead, but it took off. My point is that sales don't show quality. Some great books catch on with the greater fan base, but some don't, even though they're well reviewed.

Likewise, the New Avengers relaunch has been doing TERRIBLE. It's only selling 64k while it was selling 153k in 2005, 90k in 2008, and 78k in 2010. Talk about a downward spiral!

I don't know why I have to keep mentioning this, but you can't compare sales numbers. Because New Avengers has been in the top 10 almost every single month since it came out. Ultimate X-Men averaged #37 for the last 20 issues, and Ultimate X has not yet dropped to that point. Again, it probably will happen, but it hasn't yet.

Ultimate X #3 is down to #35 in only 3 issues. Ultimate X-men maintained a higher rank for much longer if you take out the sales numbers. And this is the book that's supposed to get the mutant wing of Ultimate going again. Yet it can't even get much higher than the books were before Ultimatum? What's that say about the underlying plan? Add to that Ultimate X is full of replacement characters and rip-offs. This book has about as much potential as Brett Favre's acting career.

Yes, it's an alternative. So which is more likely to be the top seller - the main Universe that has been around for 50 years or the universe that receives almost no marketing and no longer has the novelty it once did? There's absolutely no reason why Ultimate books should be outselling their 616 counterparts.

Ultimate was once a consistent top seller and these post-Ultimatum books have had their share of marketing. It's not like they're coming out of the same situation as the Walking Dead. Remember, even Ultimates 3 was a top seller. Even if a lot here thought it was terrible, at least only one person died in it (factoring in that Pietro's death was faked).

What if that reason is because we LIKE the books? I agree that some people will jump on a bandwagon, but there are bigger bandwagons to jump on than the Ultimate U. You can't just discredit people's opinions as being fabricated; that's not how it works. And as far as "objective quality" goes (even though there's really no such thing as objective quality), people often talk about why they like these Ultimate books, and I'm sure they'll do the same when future books come out.

That's my point. If you like the books that came before it, you usually like the books that come after it. The bandwagon effect is more powerful than you think. I know. I studied it in college. It's a real psychological phenomenon that PR companies and marketing firms have been utilizing for decades. I'm guilty of it too and I'm still guilty of it on a regular basis. I don't hide from it.

People like to think their opinions are their own, but most of the time that's not the case. You like what you like and won't change your mind unless it's horribly butchered (like in Ultimatum). So if you were okay with the books after Ultimatum, there's pretty much nothing Ultimate X or any Ultimate book can do for that matter that you won't praise like it's mound of chocolate ice cream served on a Playboy playmate's boobs. Because when you're being influenced by the bandwagon effect, just getting the next fix as it were is enough to make you feel satisfied and that effects your critique of the product. I'm not saying this to be condescending. I'm saying this through experience. I could be proven wrong, but based on the science I know there's an 80 to 90 percent chance that I'll be right. When your review comes out, you'll see what I mean.

[Plawsky]

That's my point. If you like the books that came before it, you usually like the books that come after it. The bandwagon affect is more powerful than you think. I know. I studied it in college. I know people like to think their opinions are their own, but most of the time that's not the case. You like what you like and won't change your mind unless it's horribly butchered (like in Ultimatum). So if you were okay with the books after Ultimatum, there's pretty much nothing Ultimate X or any Ultimate book can do for that matter that you won't praise like it's mound of chocolate ice cream served on a Playboy playmate's boobs. I'm not saying this to be condescending. I'm saying this through experience. I could be proven wrong, but there's a 90 percent chance that I'll be right. When your review comes out, you'll see what I mean.

I honestly don't care if you studied it in college. I'm really not a fan of being told that my opinions are fake, invalid, or not my own. I know what I like; I know why I like it. If you can't accept that as true, then I don't know what else to say. The only thing I'll see when my review comes out is that I wrote based on how I felt about the issue.

You might not be trying to be condescending, but you're doing a good job at it. Any time you say things like "I studied it in college," you're asserting that you have some kind of an expertise over the person you're talking to. Plus, you're acting like YOUR change of opinion was justifiable, but because we still like the books we must all be sheep.

[MarvelMaster616]

I suspect you're right about Ultimate X#4. I probably will just love it out of relief, but I'm not one to gloat when there's no substance, so I'd definitely be the first to call foul if there's any garbage in there! At least whatever I deem garbage lol

But hey, that's all I needed to hear! I completely understand your point of view. If X-MEN was my baby then I'd probably be right there with you in calling bullshit. That's not to say I don't like X-men though, because they were always right up there for me next to good ol' spidey. After the whole Banshee drug arc I was kind of waning on Ultimate Xmen myself. It just screamed filler. So because of that arc I was shocked when Wolverine was killed, and absolutely mortified when Cyclops was murdered. That panel still gives me chills. I couldnt believe the Xmen would get such a weak arc and then be eradicated.

But it's because of Ultimatum's tragedy ((in every sense)) that I want more Ultimate X. I want to know more about Ultimate Mutants and their situations, and especially what "idea" Wolverine said he had about their "future." I want to see where Rogue, Storm and Colossus are. Honestly, it's curiosity that has me hanging on here. Mutants were at the heart of Ultimatum and the Ultimate universe, and it only makes sense that there is something big brewing there. Especially after the crazy casualty rate of Ultimatum, part of me is hoping that there is a huge pay off. In all honestly, it sounds cheesy, but I guess I'm just hanging on to hope here AND curiosity Plus the idea of Wolverine's offspring fighting for a future is pretty emotional, especially since Wolverine led such a fucked up life and died an incredibly heroic yet gruesome death ((at least to me. better than wasp's )).

I still dont get how Wolverine and the Xmen was cancelled! I wasn't too crazy about the first 3 episodes but Disney XD held a marathon and it was just amazing. I couldnt believe what I was watching. Then the news comes out that Marvel couldn't work out financing with Nickelodeon and they dropped it. Such bull. Make a deal and bring it to Disney XD! Granted the upcoming Xmen Anime looks badass, it could still suck

I just need to see a preview of the Ultimate Spidey show. Something! They announced it, what, a year ago? I assumed it would air holiday 2010 or early 2011, but no. Freaking fall... *sigh*

If you can overcome the bandwagon effect, more power to you. Just know that the statistics are working against you. Like I told Plawsky, there's an 80 to 90 percent chance that no matter what Ultimate X does you'll find a way to give it your seal of approval. I usually play the odds so I'll take them.

I appreciate your understanding. I'm sure that if Peter Parker, Aunt May, Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane, J. Jonah Jameson, and Flash were horribly maimed in Ultimatum our positions would be reversed. You would be the one banging your head against the wall and getting thank-you notes from pharmaceutical companies instead of me. Ultimatum was palpable if you didn't care about the mutant wing of Marvel. If you did you're SOL and that's the boat I'm in. Even if Ultimate X-men was waning towards the end (and I don't believe that it was) do you believe it warranted the outright destruction of Ultimatum? Was it worth it to get Ultimate X? Even if you like Ultimate X, it's not like these stories couldn't have been told without Ultimatum.

The whole idea of Ultimate X is a big part of what bugs me. The X-men failed. Mutants are hated. Magneto committed an atrocity that makes Stalin look tame. Now they might as well be neo-Nazi's trying to win public approval. It's not going to happen. There's no future to fight for. There's nothing by the rotting corpse of the Ultimate X-men series. You could be the most beautiful and well-developed maggot in the world. It's still a maggot and it's still eating the charred remains of a stinking corpse. I would rather just see that corpse buried than have a book like Ultimate X play the role of a necrophiliac who had a double dose of viagra. I don't see any pay off that would make Ultimatum worth it. I could be wrong, but it's a real long shot because you can't replace the characters that were killed with cheap rip-offs like Derek Morgan and Jimmy Hudson.

I would be much less crazy if Wolverine and the X-men were still on the air. That whole Disney merger was probably what killed it because they signed the deal that made the show an exclusive to Nicktoons Network, a channel that has an audience on par with re-runs of the Jeff Foxworthy show on TV Land. It's a total farce because Spectacular Spider-Man was able to get a second season when it switched networks from WB to Disney XD. Wolverine and the X-men was such a high rated show and to lose it when a 2nd season had been ordered is beyond tragic. It's another reason why I resorted to lousy fanfiction instead.

Not sure about the anime though. It looks like it's just ripping off Wolverine and the X-men. The plot revolves around the team rejoining a year after a tragedy. Really? That's the best they could come up with? Plus they made Cyclops look like a tranny.

I sincerely hope Ultimate Spider-Man opens the door for another X-men series that could become part of a unified Marvel animated universe. Now that Marvel is owned by Disney, they have the resources to make it happen. We'll probably not see anything until the SDCC this year. By then Death of Spider-Man should be nearing it's end and if they do end up killing Spider-Man (which I doubt), they'll need something for those same fans that gave into the Fantastic Four gimmick. It's tragic, but it works and there's nothing anyone can do to change it.

[MarvelMaster616]

I honestly don't care if you studied it in college. I'm really not a fan of being told that my opinions are fake, invalid, or not my own. I know what I like; I know why I like it. If you can't accept that as true, then I don't know what else to say. The only thing I'll see when my review comes out is that I wrote based on how I felt about the issue.

You might not be trying to be condescending, but you're doing a good job at it. Any time you say things like "I studied it in college," you're asserting that you have some kind of an expertise over the person you're talking to. Plus, you're acting like YOUR change of opinion was justifiable, but because we still like the books we must all be sheep.

I'm not saying their fake. I'm saying they're highly bias and highly influenced by forces beyond your own tastes. I'm not saying mine aren't. They are. You say you'll write what you felt about the issue, but what you feel doesn't come from a vacuum. You've seen my reviews on my blog. You know I have my bias. I don't do anything to hide it. I cited the college thing because I didn't want you to think I was pulling it out of my ass. I'm not trying to change your opinion. Like I said, that's next to impossible. This is my take and I think the social science will back me up in the end. But again, if I'm wrong I'm wrong.