Ultimate Sales Discussions

[MarvelMaster616]

Once again, you should do some research before you state facts about numbers, because this isn't true. The only current book that is below the sustained sales position of UXM and UFF at the end of their run is Mystery. If you're comparing sheer numbers, then it's true I suppose, but it's the wrong way to do comparisons.

I did check my facts. Comicsbeat.com reported numbers for both Spider-Man and Avengers. The sales for Ultimate Spider-Man may be stable now, but look at the rates compared to two and three years ago before Ultimatum.

41. ULTIMATE COMICS AVENGERS
12/09 ---
01/10 ---
02/10 ---
03/10 Vol 1 #5 - 58,098 ( -1.6%)
04/10 Vol 1 #6 - 53,438 ( -8.0%)
04/10 Vol 2 #1 - 64,811 (+21.3%)
05/10 Vol 2 #2 - 52,939 (-18.3%)
06/10 Vol 2 #3 - 50,797 ( -4.0%)
06/10 Vol 2 #4 - 49,606 ( -2.3%)
07/10 Vol 2 #5 - 46,886 ( -5.5%)
08/10 Vol 2 #6 - 46,358 (-11.3%)
08/10 Vol 3 #1 - 53,870 (+16.2%)
09/10 Vol 3 #2 - 43,119 (-20.0%)
10/10 Vol 3 #3 - 38,529 (-10.6%)
11/10 Vol 3 #4 - 36,777 ( -4.5%)
12/10 Vol 3 #5 - 34,483 ( -6.2%)
6 mnth (-30.5%)
1 year ( --- )

42. ULTIMATE COMICS SPIDER-MAN
12/05 #88 - 72,984
12/06 #103 - 76,251
12/07 #117 - 60,361
12/08 #129 - 51,071
=====
12/09 #5 - 45,849 ( -6.6%)
01/10 #6 - 43,622 ( -4.9%)
02/10 #7 - 42,176 ( -3.3%)
03/10 #8 - 40,967 ( -2.9%)
04/10 #9 - 39,955 ( -2.5%)
05/10 #10 - 39,690 ( -0.7%)
06/10 #11 - 39,149 ( -1.4%)
07/10 #12 - 37,879 ( -3.2%)
08/10 #13 - 36,946 ( -2.5%)
09/10 #14 - 35,776 ( -3.7%)
10/10 #15 - 34,657 ( -3.1%)
11/10 #150 - 40,553 (+17.0%)
12/10 #151 - 33,707 (-16.9%)
6 mnth (-13.9%)
1 year (-26.5%)
2 year (-34.0%)
3 year (-44.2%)
4 year (-55.8%)
5 year (-53.8%)

As expected, the sales boost for ULTIMATE COMICS SPIDER-MAN #150 is a blip, though underlying sales seem reasonably stable. ULTIMATE COMICS AVENGERS is dropping rather more swiftly, though. Given that Marvel have been struggling of late to attract interest in the Ultimate books, it’ll be very interesting to see what happens to these two with the heavily hyped “Death of Spider-Man” in the spring.

Even compared to six months ago, these are double digit drops in sales. The sales of Ultimate X-men towards the end were around the 50k range. The first issue of Ultimate X was only 59k. Issue 2 lost 11k in sales and fell to around 48K. Issue 3 sunk even lower to 44k. And Ultimate X was hyped in addition to being well-reviewed. Yet Ultimate X-men towards the end still outsold it. I think that's pretty telling. If Ultimatum was supposed to revitalize, I think this indicates that it hasn't worked. Yes, it's different. It's different in the same way that blowing up a building makes it different. That doesn't make it right and that doesn't make it a success.

[Plawsky]

Even compared to six months ago, these are double digit drops in sales. The sales of Ultimate X-men towards the end were around the 50k range. The first issue of Ultimate X was only 59k. Issue 2 lost 11k in sales and fell to around 48K. Issue 3 sunk even lower to 44k. And Ultimate X was hyped in addition to being well-reviewed. Yet Ultimate X-men towards the end still outsold it.

Remember how I said you can't compare straight sales numbers? If you do that, you're not accounting for that fact that comics in general sell significantly less than they did just a few years ago. You have to isolate the book from the overall problem in the industry by comparing their place on the sales chart. That's the only way you can see how a book is doing in relation to the rest of the comics industry.

Ultimate X-Men was in the 30s starting in 2007, falling into the 40s towards the end of its run; Fantastic Four was in the high 40s starting at that same point, and it fell into the 60s.

-Ultimate X - SO FAR - has been at 16, 26, and 35. Yes, it could fall to lower in the future, but it hasn't yet.
-New Ultimates 1-4 were between 8 and 34.
-Avengers seems to have settled in the high 30s.

I agree, and have acknowledged, that USM's sales have fallen, and I'm aware that UCA's sales have been going down too. But they've both leveled out, and will likely go up during DoSM.

[Plawsky]

Not trying to start an argument here but by that logic shouldn't we compare how the first 3 issues of Ultimate X-Men sold vs how the first 3 issues of Ultimate X sold?

No, because the industry and, more specifically, the UU is in an entirely different place than it was now. Just like if they did a big shakeup to up the sales of X-Men: Legacy, you wouldn't compare the post-event sales to Claremont's first three issues of X-Men in 1991.

[Agemoi]

I did check my facts. Comicsbeat.com reported numbers for both Spider-Man and Avengers. The sales for Ultimate Spider-Man may be stable now, but look at the rates compared to two and three years ago before Ultimatum.

41. ULTIMATE COMICS AVENGERS
12/09 ---
01/10 ---
02/10 ---
03/10 Vol 1 #5 - 58,098 ( -1.6%)
04/10 Vol 1 #6 - 53,438 ( -8.0%)
04/10 Vol 2 #1 - 64,811 (+21.3%)
05/10 Vol 2 #2 - 52,939 (-18.3%)
06/10 Vol 2 #3 - 50,797 ( -4.0%)
06/10 Vol 2 #4 - 49,606 ( -2.3%)
07/10 Vol 2 #5 - 46,886 ( -5.5%)
08/10 Vol 2 #6 - 46,358 (-11.3%)
08/10 Vol 3 #1 - 53,870 (+16.2%)
09/10 Vol 3 #2 - 43,119 (-20.0%)
10/10 Vol 3 #3 - 38,529 (-10.6%)
11/10 Vol 3 #4 - 36,777 ( -4.5%)
12/10 Vol 3 #5 - 34,483 ( -6.2%)
6 mnth (-30.5%)
1 year ( --- )

42. ULTIMATE COMICS SPIDER-MAN
12/05 #88 - 72,984
12/06 #103 - 76,251
12/07 #117 - 60,361
12/08 #129 - 51,071
=====
12/09 #5 - 45,849 ( -6.6%)
01/10 #6 - 43,622 ( -4.9%)
02/10 #7 - 42,176 ( -3.3%)
03/10 #8 - 40,967 ( -2.9%)
04/10 #9 - 39,955 ( -2.5%)
05/10 #10 - 39,690 ( -0.7%)
06/10 #11 - 39,149 ( -1.4%)
07/10 #12 - 37,879 ( -3.2%)
08/10 #13 - 36,946 ( -2.5%)
09/10 #14 - 35,776 ( -3.7%)
10/10 #15 - 34,657 ( -3.1%)
11/10 #150 - 40,553 (+17.0%)
12/10 #151 - 33,707 (-16.9%)
6 mnth (-13.9%)
1 year (-26.5%)
2 year (-34.0%)
3 year (-44.2%)
4 year (-55.8%)
5 year (-53.8%)

As expected, the sales boost for ULTIMATE COMICS SPIDER-MAN #150 is a blip, though underlying sales seem reasonably stable. ULTIMATE COMICS AVENGERS is dropping rather more swiftly, though. Given that Marvel have been struggling of late to attract interest in the Ultimate books, it’ll be very interesting to see what happens to these two with the heavily hyped “Death of Spider-Man” in the spring.

Even compared to six months ago, these are double digit drops in sales. The sales of Ultimate X-men towards the end were around the 50k range. The first issue of Ultimate X was only 59k. Issue 2 lost 11k in sales and fell to around 48K. Issue 3 sunk even lower to 44k. And Ultimate X was hyped in addition to being well-reviewed. Yet Ultimate X-men towards the end still outsold it. I think that's pretty telling. If Ultimatum was supposed to revitalize, I think this indicates that it hasn't worked. Yes, it's different. It's different in the same way that blowing up a building makes it different. That doesn't make it right and that doesn't make it a success.

I feel like we're all saying the same thing. You're right about ultimatum. Through and through. It was sloppy and messy and a failed attempt to revitalize the line and jump sales. No one is arguing it failed. At least from what I see around these forums from the heavy posters. I for one enjoyed it like one enjoys watching Hostel or Transformers 2. It was sick/blockbuster entertainment that split the ultimate fan base. I was on the edge of my seat wanting to know what happens next, and when it was over i was one of the few ((i guess)) that really wanted to continue with Ultimate to see just how much this world will change.

To me the stories are more consistent and more involved than they were pre-ultimatum. Sales never, ever equal quality, and i think thats a hugely important statement to this discussion. What sells is an image, an icon, something that fans are familiar with, no matter how hardcore or casual. It's marketing 101. Batman, spiderman, wolverine, etc all sell in the U.S like damn hotcakes in Ethiopia.

But i think an even bigger point is that it's not just Ultimate. Sales for comics are down all around. Marvel is still outselling DC like it's no one's business. Compared to how the shape of the industry is constantly changing and adapting to the new media age, the Ultimate universe is still selling just fine, and i think thats the point Plawsky keeps making time and time again. It is down generally, yes. But they're still selling well in comparison the the larger industry. And it's not just the shape of the media, its the overall economy. The people who are the main consumers of comics dont have the money anymore. I'm one of them. Every month i cancel one book to make things easier.

To summarize: It's not so simple to say: "Ultimatum sucked, ultimate sucks, so in turn it's sales suck and it will be cancelled." Im not saying that about you either, just generally. No flaming here. It may be ones opinion that they dont like Ultimate, but the whole print industry is at stake. America thinks it is entitled to reap the benefits of entertainment, just not at their financial expense ((hence the changing of the multi-media industry)), and those who want to still consume properly can't b/c the wealth just isnt there. All of this happened at once, bad economy, dipping sales, ultimatum. Its all of them, but none of them. Fact is, things are changing, and we can't just stare at ultimatum and call foul. Correlation never, ever equals causation.

[Agemoi]

Remember how I said you can't compare straight sales numbers? If you do that, you're not accounting for that fact that comics in general sell significantly less than they did just a few years ago. You have to isolate the book from the overall problem in the industry by comparing their place on the sales chart. That's the only way you can see how a book is doing in relation to the rest of the comics industry.

Ultimate X-Men was in the 30s starting in 2007, falling into the 40s towards the end of its run; Fantastic Four was in the high 40s starting at that same point, and it fell into the 60s.

-Ultimate X - SO FAR - has been at 16, 26, and 35. Yes, it could fall to lower in the future, but it hasn't yet.
-New Ultimates 1-4 were between 8 and 34.
-Avengers seems to have settled in the high 30s.

I agree, and have acknowledged, that USM's sales have fallen, and I'm aware that UCA's sales have been going down too. But they've both leveled out, and will likely go up during DoSM.

Man, I took too long typing mine lol Beat me to it. I basically said the same thing here. Straight sales can't be compared. Its not the "Ultimate Industry" its the comics industry. Every title is down all around, but Marvel is still on top of the competition. The only thing DC has from what I can see are the batman titles, as always. Its important we recognize that one big event isnt the sole reason for Ultimate dipping. We all agree Ultimatum was a misstep, what's important is what Marvel does with it.

I'm in it for the long haul; Im not going to abandon the universe that still, in my honest opinion, sets the gold standard for characterization and overall story telling. Without ultimate, 616 wouldn't have had anything to take from and revitalize a feeling to write edgier, more involved stories. Though 616 is still suffering from the same tropes: killing off big characters, ant-climactic yearly events, bring back big characters. Its jus getting old. No matter how big a misstep Ultimatum was, Ultimate comics still read like they have a soul to me.

[Agemoi]

By The Way. I recommend everyone skim this. Its enlightening and really puts the industry in perspective. Especially with the current discussion, i think we can all benefit from checking this out:

http://enterthestory.com/comic_sales.html

[Wolverine12]

No, because the industry and, more specifically, the UU is in an entirely different place than it was now. Just like if they did a big shakeup to up the sales of X-Men: Legacy, you wouldn't compare the post-event sales to Claremont's first three issues of X-Men in 1991.

So why do you use the last issues? I'm trying to understand your logic and which issues you're comparing. Are comparing Ultimate X-Men #'s 98, 99 and 100 to Ultimate X #'s 1,2 and 3?

[VRaptorX]

All I'm saying was that if Marvel was unhappy about the sales before, they are also unhappy with the sales now. That's just business. Any business is like that. Let's just take this in terms of say politics.

Candidate A used top have a 75% of votes. Years later Candidate A only has a 43%. Candidate A is unhappy so he makes some changes. After the changes Candidate A only has 41% of votes. Is Candidate A happy or unhappy with the results?

No business is going to be happy when their plan to get more money/readers/sales/etc failed. No company ever settles for less.

[MisterSmith]

So why do you use the last issues? I'm trying to understand your logic and which issues you're comparing. Are comparing Ultimate X-Men #'s 98, 99 and 100 to Ultimate X #'s 1,2 and 3?

I would assume because their time of release is much closer and more reflective of the marketplace. I'd imagine comparing the #1-#3 of any series being released now is going to be significantly less than the #1-#3 of any series from a decade ago.

[Plawsky]

So why do you use the last issues?

Only because it's really the best thing to compare to. As Ultimate X is essentially the continuation of Ultimate X-Men - or likely would be if it could get out of the first arc - then you look at how Ultimate X-men was trending at the end of its run, and where Ultimate X has carried that trend. I'm not necessarily comparing individual issues, just overall trends.

Candidate A used top have a 75% of votes. Years later Candidate A only has a 43%. Candidate A is unhappy so he makes some changes. After the changes Candidate A only has 41% of votes. Is Candidate A happy or unhappy with the results?

I'm not really sure why you're comparing politics to economics, because they're completely different. Politics is about getting more popularity than the other guy. If you don't, you lose.

No business is going to be happy when their plan to get more money/readers/sales/etc failed. No company ever settles for less.

So then why does Marvel keep publishing Hulk? It used to be a top 10 seller but it's now fallen down to the 40s. Why has Smallville been on for 10 seasons even though viewership dropped by millions of people after the first few seasons? There's nothing wrong with settling for less if you realize that the interest simply isn't there.

At some point, you have to weigh your options. Marvel can only do so much marketing. They gave Ultimate the big push with Ultimatum and it didn't work out. Doesn't it make more sense to put that effort towards pushing something new rather than a second effort that likely won't be successful?

[VRaptorX]

politics is money. That's why every politician is bought and sold. that's why they all take lobbyist jobs after they cash in....I mean "retire"

Politics and Economics are one in the same.

[Plawsky]

politics is money. That's why every politician is bought and sold. that's why they all take lobbyist jobs after they cash in....I mean "retire"

Politics and Economics are one in the same.

In that regard, sure, I guess they're similar. But in practice they don't work the same way at all. Coca Cola isn't going to analyze George Bush's campaign and emulate it to sell soda.

But that still leaves my questions unanswered:

So then why does Marvel keep publishing Hulk? It used to be a top 10 seller but it's now fallen down to the 40s. Why has Smallville been on for 10 seasons even though viewership dropped by millions of people after the first few seasons? There's nothing wrong with settling for less if you realize that the interest simply isn't there.

[VRaptorX]

because it's Hulk. Hulk is an icon that has been around for decades. it's like asking DC to cancel Batman if Batman were to go through a horrible few years with sales. They'll never do it.

Ultimate (anything besides Spidey) is not an icon. Heck, it isn't even main universe. They don't have the same rules applied to them.

[Plawsky]

You don't think there's anything iconic about the longest running alternate Universe in comics? It's been around for over a decade, and it's the reason that Bendis is the biggest writer at Marvel right now. I'd say that's more than just a bit of prominence.

[VRaptorX]

Besides Ult Spidey....yeah. The rest of the line is considered not the real deal. the rest of the line has been inferior to 616 for years. Not many people outside of Ultimate fans even give a damn about this universe anymore. When you say Juggernaut, they think 616. When you say Mr Sinister, they think 616. When you say Storm, they think 616. When you say Daredevil, 616. When you say Fantastic 4, 616. Iron man, 616. Etc, etc.

This line (besides Spidey, Fury...and maybe Ultimate Cap) are not icons.