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  1. #556

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    I know I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating. I believe the real reason why various creators at Marvel over the years were against the idea of Spider-Man being married is because it made them realize that Spider-Man was no longer a kid but a full-fledged adult just like every other superhero. Which, of course, goes against the very image of what Marvel has tried to promote Spider-Man as--a teenage and/or young superhero who's not a sidekick to another superhero.

    Of course, I'm of the opinion that it wasn't Peter's marriage to Mary Jane which made him an adult, because he was already an adult by the time that happened. As Colin Smith of Too Busy Thinking About My Comics and other posters have pointed out, Peter getting married to Mary Jane at that point in time "wasn't a betrayal of the character. It was the logical, even necessary culmination of Peter Parker's life-story."

    No, I believe the real point in which Peter became an adult wasn't due to Jim Shooter--it was because of Marv Wolfman. That's because Wolfman did two things to Spider-Man during his run on Amazing. The first was to have Peter graduate from College, which, like it or not, is still universally regarded as passage into an mature adulthood, where you're expected to start "acting your age." The second is when he had Peter involved in what as, for all intents and purposes, an adulterous affair with a then married Betty Brant. Granted, it wasn't explicit and was rather tame by today's standards, there's no getting around the fact that Peter was dating (and hinted to have slept with) a woman who, while separated from her husband, was still legally married. And if the argument is that Spider-Man is supposed to be about "youth," then those two plot developments are the moments in which Spider-Man crossed a line that he could never go back across no matter how hard Marvel has tried to do otherwise.
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  2. #557

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I dispensed with modesty a long time ago!

    Right after I gunned it down and hit it with a Mac truck.
    I always say if you want a job done right, you should always involve use of a gun and a Mac truck, just to be sure. Once in a while, maybe a steamroller just to mix it up.
    Perfect humility dispenses with modesty.

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Yeah,yeah.

    Because the Spider-Man stories being locked in a marriage staus quo that was lasting over 20 years is what Spider-Man is all about.No point in giving the stories new directions,let just leave the stories the same forever.
    And a Spider-Man that decides to unmask in the television and live a life in the run with MJ and Aunt May is as well what Spidey is all about.
    And Spidey having a origin tied to some totem mystic shenanigan is what Spidey is all about as well.And having organic webs,stinkers and whatever else powers Spidey got from the Other storyline is what Spidey is all about.

    For shame,Marvel making the Spidey stories funny again and closer to the core of the character.

    Sarcasm off.
    To be fair your idea of new direction is weird. I mean by your standards if they get married whenever Peter gets back its a "new direction".

    Also making the story fun again is rather subjective don't you think? Not even getting into the core of the character thing, because if that is true it makes me sad.

  4. #559
    Senior Member Noronha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Which just proves that opinions vary.
    Just as you disliked this version of PP the same hapened with me during the marriage years.
    But the point I was trying to make is that, regardless of the direction or status of the character, this new idea of parker luck, youth, goofball, happy-go-lucky etc, has never been used before.

    Thatīs why I said that all those years in which he was single I never once saw him written this way, so I really donīt understand when you say itīs closer to the core of the character.

    And I get it you didnīt like the marriage, but was PP written out of character all those years?(excluding clone saga and OMD), I didnīt see a different PP from the one why got the years prior, yes he was married but the core of the character remained there, his motives, the way he acted etc.

    Itīs one thing to not like the direction, set up etc itīs a completely different thing to say he was a different version.

    And him being "locked" in the marriage, how does it differ from him being single, from my perspective he is "locked" because he canīt get to serious with any new girlfriend, why?
    - Marvel went to so much trouble to end the marriage, he will never get remarried again, therefor the relashionship is doomed;
    - No matter how many relashionships he has, the fact remains (and ironically OMD contributed to further the idea) that MJ is the one he choose to spend his life with, and as long as she is around there will always be "will they or will they not" element, they wonīt kill her;
    - A new love interest can be fun, but it wonīt last, either because he has to stay single, or because there will always be MJ.

    So how is this not a "locked" status?
    Last edited by Noronha; 02-07-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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  5. #560
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I always say if you want a job done right, you should always involve use of a gun and a Mac truck, just to be sure. Once in a while, maybe a steamroller just to mix it up.
    Hey, I think we were in the same Shenanigans 101 class at ACME University!

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  6. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Smith View Post
    what happens next is not about what makes sense in terms of "real life" for a fictional character. it's about what makes for the most entertaining stories. and we've seen over and over that marriage, doesn't necessarily make for or support great action adventure stories on an ongoing basis.
    Nobody goes through every milestone, and they don't go through them in any one order. My enjoyment of the marriage doesn't have anything to do with me being married, or not (I am married, but I liked the status quo before I was) it's just the preference I have. I like the status quo of the last few years too, but prefer the marriage.

    When you say we've seen over and over that marriage doesn't make for good adventure stories, I'm not sure if you mean for Spider-Man or in general. In general, there aren't many adventure stories (that I'm aware of) that feature married characters, but in fiction writing you don't have to do what everyone else does (in fact, you usually aim to do the opposite). And I think that the marriage of Spider-Man and MJ made for some very good stories.

    If I wrote a top 10 list, I think married stories would make up the majority. Same with a top 25. Only when we get to top 50 and top 100's would the balance start to become more even (and no, I haven't ever made anything beyond a 10).

    When Spider-Man started, he was different from other comic heroes because he had personal issues and because he grew. Now, every hero seems to be imitating Spider-Man. The current Superman books are basically Spider-Man in a different suit. Even Batman has personal stuff going on.

    Spider-Man was the trailblazer for change and personal development and I thought the marriage was the next step in that, and also served as a way to keep him different from the other superheroes, yet he retained his core defining trait: great power and great responsibility.

  7. #562
    100% alive since 1978 Ben Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noronha View Post
    It all comes down to the writer, JMD wanted MJ to immediatly tell the difference between Peter and the Chameleon, Slott doesnīt.
    And that wasnīt my point, so no argues there.
    what was your point, because I don't think this is a conversation geared toward you complaining about the current status quo
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  8. #563

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    Am I the only one who didn't care about the marriage being split up but hated the way it was done? I felt like they had told all the stories they could tell with Spider-Man being married. And I was a fan of Pete and mj together

    At that point of OMD the relationship to me was treading water. Dont get me wrong OMD was NOT the way to end the marriage. They should have done a divorce.

    Joe Q's rationing that divorce ages the character is indicative of out of touch he is with the younger generation. I'm 32, but back when I was 27, 29ish people my age that got married like at 23-24 were already getting divorced.

    More and more people had been getting married in their 20's since Joe Q's time growing up in that period. I thankfully did not, nor ever will. Not dissing marriage, just dont think its for me. But getting back on point it's a reality.

    Young people get married and divorced all the time. It's not aging the character at all when that's the norm. I dont think there would have been as big of a backlash to Pete and Mj no longer being together if Joe Q had gone through with a divorce. And also just the explanation that all the marriage stories have been told instead of " It ages him" BS

    They need some younger blood in the upper ranks at Marvel. These guys are utterly clueless in relating to a younger generation.

  9. #564

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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicImageLtd View Post
    Am I the only one who didn't care about the marriage being split up but hated the way it was done?
    Not at all. I think there are several folks here, myself included, who feel similarly.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  10. #565

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    Good. I love how TBTB at Marvel tried to frame it like we can't accept change. No, that's not it at all. We dont accept poor EXECUTION.

    Same thing with Spock. I would have been open to a new Spidey. Even though I know it's a one year deal, Ock as Spidey does not interest me. He's always been a bland character best taken in small doses.

    If they honestly think people will read Spock more than a year maybe 2, they are kidding themselves. I think what will happen is Peter getting his body back, but losing his powers. And some other person will get his powers.

    (NOTE TO MODS - Im not getting off track, just providing an example of poor execution, please dont move this thanks :)

    If they had done the passing of the baton to someone else who is not a villain people would have taken the change easier. So my point is people are open to change, but hate sloppy execution.

  11. #566
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Ben left out John Romita Sr's response, which was also mentioned in Sean Howe's Marvel Comics The Untold Story.

    He thought it was a bad idea, as the comic strip Lil' Abner never recovered for the marriage of Abner and Daisy Mae.
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  12. #567
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Ben left out John Romita Sr's response, which was also mentioned in Sean Howe's Marvel Comics The Untold Story.

    He thought it was a bad idea, as the comic strip Lil' Abner never recovered for the marriage of Abner and Daisy Mae.
    And the next several years of kickass stories proved JR, Sr. wonderfully wrong!
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  13. #568

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    I think it's funny that most of the creaters who were against the marriage are married. Bitter much? I'm the last person to defend the institution of marriage itself. But I see nothing wrong with depicting it in a comic.

    I enjoyed reading the marriage stories for the most part. It just got stale the last couple of years. I think the creaters should separate their disappointment about marriage from the story itself. Or go one further and show the problems which lead to marriages not working out. Spider-man is supposed to be relatable to the everyman so show what the everyman faces regarding problems in a marriage.

    I think divorce would have enriched the character not aged him. Pete facing these personal struggles is the most compelling thing about Spidey IMO.

  14. #569

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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicImageLtd View Post
    Same thing with Spock. I would have been open to a new Spidey. Even though I know it's a one year deal, Ock as Spidey does not interest me. He's always been a bland character best taken in small doses.
    I completely disagree with you here, at least about the relative worth of Doc Ock's character. I have always though Octavius was a wonderful character, very interesting and a great foil for Peter Parker/Spider-Man.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  15. #570
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    I completely disagree with you here, at least about the relative worth of Doc Ock's character. I have always though Octavius was a wonderful character, very interesting and a great foil for Peter Parker/Spider-Man.
    You know the great thing about Ock has always been that's he not emotionally involved with Peter. He's a cool customer who kills people because they get in his way. He doesn't want to hurt you. He wants to beat you!
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

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