Clor: The Thor CYBORG

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I'm sorry, I don't have moderator abilities or else I would have pulled posts out of other topics and used them to create this thread, but let this be known as the final thread on the topic of Clor.

Many people believe that Tony, Reed and Pym, based on what I assume is the terminology of the word "clone" used in the pages of Civil War, make Clor a rapidly aged God clone who was gutted and filled with robotic parts.

I own the Civil War hardback, which comes with the scripts and commentary from Millar and Brevoort. I finally went back to them and have much more insight onto the matter.

Pull back for a full-page splash and the most bad-ass image ever as a furious, bloodied Hercules smashes the Hammer into the Thor cyborg, chunks of flesh and circuitry going everywhere as he's just smashed to pieces.

Now, this already debunks one theory I heard that the artist took liberty and messed up. It also supports the theory that they cloned skin and muscles from Thor's hair to place outside of the cyborg skeleton. That makes a whole lot more sense then them gutting a clone, especially considering that the imagery shows tubes and what-not leading from Thor's "organs".

Another nice quip from Tom Brevoort:

Make no mistake -- (this is) meant to be a creepy sequence, in that this is where the readers become aware of exactly what it is that Tony and Reed and Hank have done at this point. But the ear-probe and the blood are all details that Steve threw into the sequence -- presumably to make it even more creepy and unsetttling -- so don't read too much into them.

Brevoort also goes on to call Clor a "duplicate" in much of the remainder of the commentary. However, after reading it again, even the notes are quite ambiguous about this situation. You need to read between the lines though. When Brevoort starts talking about how all the hammer Clor uses is just technology that produces the same stuff Thor does, but isn't the same, is another good giveaway that they didn't directly clone a God. Also, you need to realize that Clor had a shutdown code, and you have to wonder how, and when, that was put in place if they directly cloned Thor. A direct Thor clone would be too powerful to sedate in order to put in mechanical parts. It makes a load more sense that they cloned parts of Thor from the DNA Tony had in order to produce a cyborg as realistic as Thor as possible. At this point, everyone thought Thor was dead and to have Thor on your side, even after the initial war, would have been a great move on that team's side. What human in the MU wouldn't route for Thor?

Now, I will admit that there is a lot of grey area, especially in the dialog. Reed does say that he helped create a new super-human and they do use the word clone A LOT, but the evidence against Clor being a direct clone that was gutted outweighs the evidence that they did just that. My understanding is that as the story progressed, and the plans for Clor were laid down the more defined this "clone" became. For that reason, I don't think you can't take what's in the script from issue 3 with the same weight as issue 7 (in which Millar goes from calling it a clone to a cyborg), because by issue 7 they had a better, more fleshed out understanding of what this Thor "clone" actually was. I can see how it can be misconstrued though.

I know you guys have a lot to say on this matter, but hopefully this clears some things up. If you hate Tony Stark because he "killed a living creature", like Tom said, I think you're reading way too far into this.

[Gnarl]

1) We don't exactly know how the "God of x" thing works. Is it genetic? Is it like a title, "lord of the Moors"? Or is it some kind of deeply individual, spiritual connection to a concept?

Point is, we cannot assume that Clor would have weather powers just because he shares Thors DNA. Does Nobilis have weather powers?

2) Reed and Tony was musing on the necessity of fusing him with a Donald Blake, implying that this would be possible.

Personally, I am of the belief that the immortal, imperishable flesh recovers when he is wounded. While the cybernetic devices do not recover without repairing. Hence he gets more and more biological and less cybernetic as time goes by.

[jackolover]

Firstly, the Jackel had clone technology 30 years ago, so cloning Thor isn't an issue for these 3 genius's. As for if they can sedate the clone to do their work, as it's growing in the tank, it's asleep, and they can take it out and put in the techno brain parts while the clone is still in the processes of hibernation.

I think the end result of Hercules smashing of Clor was after MORE tech was placed into Clors brains, because of the malfunction of killing Goliath. Remember in WhatIF? CW, when the war got so escalated and they had grow an army of clors, (unless these were Terminators, Bio flesh over mechanized chassis), then these were ferocious rampaging clones? The Clor that we saw in CW was just a first attempt.

I would think a flesh over chassis would look like that bug creature that was in Men in Black. The big took off the shell of a human and wore it with a very bad fit, and walked very jerkily.

[TonyStark1012]

I'm sorry, I don't have moderator abilities or else I would have pulled posts out of other topics and used them to create this thread, but let this be known as the final thread on the topic of Clor.

Many people believe that Tony, Reed and Pym, based on what I assume is the terminology of the word "clone" used in the pages of Civil War, make Clor a rapidly aged God clone who was gutted and filled with robotic parts.

I own the Civil War hardback, which comes with the scripts and commentary from Millar and Brevoort. I finally went back to them and have much more insight onto the matter.



Now, this already debunks one theory I heard that the artist took liberty and messed up. It also supports the theory that they cloned skin and muscles from Thor's hair to place outside of the cyborg skeleton. That makes a whole lot more sense then them gutting a clone, especially considering that the imagery shows tubes and what-not leading from Thor's "organs".

Another nice quip from Tom Brevoort:


Brevoort also goes on to call Clor a "duplicate" in much of the remainder of the commentary. However, after reading it again, even the notes are quite ambiguous about this situation. You need to read between the lines though. When Brevoort starts talking about how all the hammer Clor uses is just technology that produces the same stuff Thor does, but isn't the same, is another good giveaway that they didn't directly clone a God. Also, you need to realize that Clor had a shutdown code, and you have to wonder how, and when, that was put in place if they directly cloned Thor. A direct Thor clone would be too powerful to sedate in order to put in mechanical parts. It makes a load more sense that they cloned parts of Thor from the DNA Tony had in order to produce a cyborg as realistic as Thor as possible. At this point, everyone thought Thor was dead and to have Thor on your side, even after the initial war, would have been a great move on that team's side. What human in the MU wouldn't route for Thor?

Now, I will admit that there is a lot of grey area, especially in the dialog. Reed does say that he helped create a new super-human and they do use the word clone A LOT, but the evidence against Clor being a direct clone that was gutted outweighs the evidence that they did just that. My understanding is that as the story progressed, and the plans for Clor were laid down the more defined this "clone" became. For that reason, I don't think you can't take what's in the script from issue 3 with the same weight as issue 7 (in which Millar goes from calling it a clone to a cyborg), because by issue 7 they had a better, more fleshed out understanding of what this Thor "clone" actually was. I can see how it can be misconstrued though.

I know you guys have a lot to say on this matter, but hopefully this clears some things up. If you hate Tony Stark because he "killed a living creature", like Tom said, I think you're reading way too far into this.

Thank you SomeBodyatCBR for posting this! I have been trying to arguing this point for a very long time now.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

You know, this isn't as one-sided as I remembered it. Although, I'm pretty sure they didn't directly clone Thor. Like Brevoort said about the blood and stuff, you guys are reading into it to deeply.

[marvell2100]

I would still wonder why they would grow a full bodied clone only to remove all the organs. I'm sure that they could have put something in his genetic sequencing in order for them to control him if he were a full clone. I think they just used Thor's genetic material to put a skin on Clor so that he would past the eye test. Also his "organs" could be synthetic.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I would still wonder why they would grow a full bodied clone only to remove all the organs. I'm sure that they could have put something in his genetic sequencing in order for them to control him if he were a full clone. I think they just used Thor's genetic material to put a skin on Clor so that he would past the eye test. Also his "organs" could be synthetic.

That's very logical of you.

[marvell2100]

That's very logical of you.

I'm part Vulcan you know. Live long and prosper and such.

[XPac]

I would still wonder why they would grow a full bodied clone only to remove all the organs. I'm sure that they could have put something in his genetic sequencing in order for them to control him if he were a full clone. I think they just used Thor's genetic material to put a skin on Clor so that he would past the eye test. Also his "organs" could be synthetic.

I don't think necessarily all the organs were removed.

The only thing we know for SURE is mechanical as far as I can tell is the brain... and it makes perfect sense to replace it with something mechanical if you want to control the thing.

The bigger question for me is why would they bother just cloning Thor's skin? The tech behind Life Model Decoys already creates pretty darn perfect replicas of people without requiring cloning.

Really, the only value in cloning Thor would be in getting that class 100 muscle.

[marvell2100]

I don't think necessarily all the organs were removed.

The only thing we know for SURE is mechanical as far as I can tell is the brain... and it makes perfect sense to replace it with something mechanical if you want to control the thing.

The bigger question for me is why would they bother just cloning Thor's skin? The tech behind Life Model Decoys already creates pretty darn perfect replicas of people without requiring cloning.

Really, the only value in cloning Thor would be in getting that class 100 muscle.

I'm thnking along the lines of Terminator. The skin is living tissue and could be used to mask any electronics from detection if the anti regs had any tech that could do that. As far as LMDs go, maybe they were afraid that Cap would be able to tell seeing as he's worked with SHIELD for so long. Maybe he would be able to tell the difference.

[Alan2099]

You know, this isn't as one-sided as I remembered it. Although, I'm pretty sure they didn't directly clone Thor. Like Brevoort said about the blood and stuff, you guys are reading into it to deeply.

If they didn't want people to read into it, they shouldn't have included it.

Also, Clor is a horrible name. I've always hated it. I've always preferred Cyber-Thor or Thorborg.

[XPac]

I'm thnking along the lines of Terminator. The skin is living tissue and could be used to mask any electronics from detection if the anti regs had any tech that could do that. As far as LMDs go, maybe they were afraid that Cap would be able to tell seeing as he's worked with SHIELD for so long. Maybe he would be able to tell the difference.

I frankly think Cap was able to tell the difference either way. It's not like Clor did that good a job fooling anyone.

To me it just makes more sense that they cloned Thors body, then removed what they didn't need... cloning just the skin seems pointless. Whereas cloning the body of arguably the most powerful being on the planet at the time actually has value. It's why Hank (or Skull Hank) would say that he can't believe they cloned a god. I imagine Hank would be slightly less impressed over them managing the create a good Thor disguise.

[Mark_S]

Quote:
Make no mistake -- (this is) meant to be a creepy sequence, in that this is where the readers become aware of exactly what it is that Tony and Reed and Hank have done at this point. But the ear-probe and the blood are all details that Steve threw into the sequence -- presumably to make it even more creepy and unsetttling -- so don't read too much into them.

So he is telling us that not only wasn't he in control of the writer he wasn't even in control of the artist? What did this guy do all day? And now he's trying to set the record straight in a commentary years and years after the issue has been in print... Wow.

And what ever it was that killed Goliath it was still put into motion by Tony, Reed and Skrull Hank. I wonder if Johny and Ben would have been so forgiving if it were Sue that had been killed, or how Reed would have explained it to the kids? Or if Johny had been killed would a quick second honeymoon in space have been enough for Sue to get over it? Just as well that Goliath was a character no one cared about. Would have been interesting to see the real Thor's reaction if Cap had been killed.

Mark_S

[jackolover]

You know, this isn't as one-sided as I remembered it. Although, I'm pretty sure they didn't directly clone Thor. Like Brevoort said about the blood and stuff, you guys are reading into it to deeply.

But how do you make face and hands without cloning the whole body? We saw clone bodies floating around in the tanks in CW #4.

[mikekerrIII]

I would still wonder why they would grow a full bodied clone only to remove all the organs. I'm sure that they could have put something in his genetic sequencing in order for them to control him if he were a full clone. I think they just used Thor's genetic material to put a skin on Clor so that he would past the eye test. Also his "organs" could be synthetic.

Growing cloned skin, In the right shape without a body doesn't seem like what was described, you would not call that a clone at all.

And why bother, if they only wanted the appearance of Thor LMD tech has been agound a LONG time in the MU

I think that the biggest problem with this being so hard to understand is i really don't think they bothered to understand what a clone is before they wrote the story.