CBR: J.G. Jones: Man of Bronze

[CBR News]

J.G. Jones discusses his love of Doc Savage, how he came to write the pulp character's title for DC Comics instead of drawing it, teased the forthcoming original graphic novel he's creating for the publisher and more.


Full article here.

[Schnitzy Pretzelpants]

Yet another opportunity for this title and for me to try this series.

I love Doc Savage, and have found the First Wave Mini enjoyable, but have started and dropped the Doc Savage comic twice now. Hated the first arc, and the second arc had a good start, but then fell apart for me in it’s second issue.

The way Jones discusses his ideas, will make me buy issue 13 for sure.

Can’t help but feel that he is subtly making a dig at the first two arcs of the title, when he mentions how important it is that the Doc Savage we see in this title is in the same world/universe as the Doc Savage of the First Wave mini.

That was a huge complaint of mine with the first arc of Doc Savage – it in no way felt like the same world – let alone the same Doc Savage that I have been reading in First Wave. Of course the other issue with that first arc was that it seemed to me that it was written to merely wipe out most of what made Doc Savage, Doc Savage. Really it was about destroying and removing most of Doc’s world, apparatus and status and infrastructure. Never get that idea – let’s purchase the rights to this character so we can remove/destroy so much of what makes him a unique character.

Thing is, I wouldn’t have minded – per say – if those elements had felt organic. They didn’t. Like so much in the DCU proper these days, it felt like an editorial choice being shoe-horned into a pretty lame story.

Ah, well I look forward to seeing what Jones does with issue 13. I want to have every excuse to buy and read this title, really I do.

[Ed Love]

I'm the opposite. I don't care for First Wave and all the changes that A. has made to the characters and relationships. Everywhere the characterization has felt off has been from the First Wave bible. I'd rather see just a clean reboot and focus on telling good Doc/Avenger/Spirit stories where the characters seem true to the source material.

[emb021]

Have to agree with Ed.

As a big pulp hero fan, who has read most of the Doc and all of the Avenger (and consider them among my top 5 pulp characters), I was overall displeased with the First Wave pretty much from the get go.

Now, I could accept the idea of putting them all in a new universe together, and said universe being a bit different from ours or theirs (most of the classic pulp heroes are set in the 30s & 40s).

What I could NOT abide was the severe alterations to the characters, their personalities, appearances, etc.

The Avenger has been done the worse with. Doc and his gang were also messed up with. Certainly Azzarello's insulting comments questioned the whole scheme. Why put someone in charge of these characters who obviously doesn't like or respect them? I held high hopes for Malmat's work on Doc, based on his novel "Chinatown Death Cloud Peril", but was sorely disappointed (whether this was due to his limitations writing comic books or the limitations of the FW alterations by A et al, I have no idea). Subsequent writers/storylines have not impressed me.

I can but hope that if JG Jones is a TRUE Doc fan, that he will give us the TRUE DOC (and associates) in these stories, not the crappy FW Doc monstrosity we've been seeing.

[jsf]

I agree with Ed also. I also agree with the following statement:

Why put someone in charge of these characters who obviously doesn't like or respect them? .

I've never understood Azzarello's appeal. His writing is moody, but he always plays the protagonists for chumps in some way.

[berk]

The Avenger has been done the worse with. Doc and his gang were also messed up with. Certainly Azzarello's insulting comments questioned the whole scheme. Why put someone in charge of these characters who obviously doesn't like or respect them?

What did Azzarello have to say about the characters?

[Schnitzy Pretzelpants]

Have to agree with Ed.

As a big pulp hero fan, who has read most of the Doc and all of the Avenger (and consider them among my top 5 pulp characters), I was overall displeased with the First Wave pretty much from the get go.

Now, I could accept the idea of putting them all in a new universe together, and said universe being a bit different from ours or theirs (most of the classic pulp heroes are set in the 30s & 40s).

What I could NOT abide was the severe alterations to the characters, their personalities, appearances, etc.

The Avenger has been done the worse with. Doc and his gang were also messed up with. Certainly Azzarello's insulting comments questioned the whole scheme. Why put someone in charge of these characters who obviously doesn't like or respect them? I held high hopes for Malmat's work on Doc, based on his novel "Chinatown Death Cloud Peril", but was sorely disappointed (whether this was due to his limitations writing comic books or the limitations of the FW alterations by A et al, I have no idea). Subsequent writers/storylines have not impressed me.

I can but hope that if JG Jones is a TRUE Doc fan, that he will give us the TRUE DOC (and associates) in these stories, not the crappy FW Doc monstrosity we've been seeing.

Hey, I am curious and would love for you and Ed to clarify.

I read the novels - haven't touched one in about 10 years - Red Spider.

Maybe it is my memory, but I haven't felt the Doc Savage of the mini series has been too at odds with the Doc Savage of the novels.

I do think the Doc Savage of the self-titled series is NOT the Doc Savage of the novels at all.

I do think that the central mistake they have made with First Wave is deciding that Doc Savage is the Superman of the FW Universe.

I never felt/don't feel that the two shared much in common at all. While I don't fully agree with Jones's comparing Doc Savage to Batman, I do think that the comparison is at least closer.

The problem too with putting including Batman (or really any DC character into the FW Universe) is that the powers that be at DC will almost always make that character the star of whatever story they are inserted into.

[TonyStark1012]

My first introduction to Doc Savage was First Wave and Azzarello is one of my favorite writers so I was digging it. I didn't enjoy the first arc of the ongoing, but held on when I found out Azzarello and Brandon were coming on. I'll be sticking with it to see how Jones does him because I love First Wave and the universe that's been created and will continue to support it. I try to get other people too as well. I'm glad to hear DC has plans for the universe and it's characters as I know sales haven't been to good.

[Ed Love]

First off, the death of Doc's father and the mystery and adventure resulting from that was covered in the very first novel, MAN OF BRONZE. FIRST WAVE starts off contradicting that.

Dent utilized descriptive tags for characters to make them quickly memorable (ancient Greeks did the same) and almost if not each and every novel makes a point of Monk's homeliness and several novels centered around that. Yet, here we have Renny described as being the ugly one of the group several times including Azzarello's notes. Then there's the description of Monk as being kept on hand as the pit bull of the group and Ham as his lease. While Monk was a loose canon, this shifts the nature of his relationship both with Doc and with Ham.

What's sad is that these aren't so bad, especially compared with what was done to the Avenger and the Spirit, portraying Dolan as a lazy and possibly corrupt cop. And, then a whole reimagining of the Blackhawks. The whole bill of sale of putting them on a separate earth and continuity was that it would make the pulp characters work where they wouldn't with the regular DCU. If so, then why all the liberties taken?

The comparison of Doc with Superman is that Doc is supposed to be the physical and mental epitome and paragon hero that the whole world looks up to. It's hard to do that in the regular DCU as continuity retentive it has become. When you rate best fighters, most intelligent, etc, they'd need to all be bumped down one.

[emb021]

What did Azzarello have to say about the characters?

A said that Doc fans were just a half dozen old guys in their 60s. And that this would not be the Doc that your grandfather knew.


This is totally insulting to the fans and to the character. It shows his lack of knowledge of the pulp fandom world, or his feality to the characters.

[emb021]

My first introduction to Doc Savage was First Wave and Azzarello is one of my favorite writers so I was digging it. I didn't enjoy the first arc of the ongoing, but held on when I found out Azzarello and Brandon were coming on. I'll be sticking with it to see how Jones does him because I love First Wave and the universe that's been created and will continue to support it. I try to get other people too as well. I'm glad to hear DC has plans for the universe and it's characters as I know sales haven't been to good.

Try reading the ORIGINAL stories and learn who the REAL Doc Savage is. And the real Avenger. What you are reading in this comics is but a pale and poor imitation of the real thing.

[Schnitzy Pretzelpants]

First off, the death of Doc's father and the mystery and adventure resulting from that was covered in the very first novel, MAN OF BRONZE. FIRST WAVE starts off contradicting that.

Dent utilized descriptive tags for characters to make them quickly memorable (ancient Greeks did the same) and almost if not each and every novel makes a point of Monk's homeliness and several novels centered around that. Yet, here we have Renny described as being the ugly one of the group several times including Azzarello's notes. Then there's the description of Monk as being kept on hand as the pit bull of the group and Ham as his lease. While Monk was a loose canon, this shifts the nature of his relationship both with Doc and with Ham.

What's sad is that these aren't so bad, especially compared with what was done to the Avenger and the Spirit, portraying Dolan as a lazy and possibly corrupt cop. And, then a whole reimagining of the Blackhawks. The whole bill of sale of putting them on a separate earth and continuity was that it would make the pulp characters work where they wouldn't with the regular DCU. If so, then why all the liberties taken?

The comparison of Doc with Superman is that Doc is supposed to be the physical and mental epitome and paragon hero that the whole world looks up to. It's hard to do that in the regular DCU as continuity retentive it has become. When you rate best fighters, most intelligent, etc, they'd need to all be bumped down one.

Thanks for elaborating, and seeing your points clarified, I have to say that I don’t think were in too much disagreement about things at all.

I totally agree with your points about the Spirit too – Dolan in particular. I was actually enjoying Cooke’s take on title, before the First Wave reboot.

I have to say that I never read a single Avenger story so all I have been going on is that I find the back-up stories better written, more engaging stories than the Doc Savage ones.

I completely understand why they made Doc Savage the Superman equivalent in this universe, but your further explanation of the matter highlights for me even more just why it doesn’t work. Doc may well be the epitome of man at his most developed and honed form. Superman is definitely NOT. He’s a superman just because that’s what he is and can’t be anything else. Had they made the comparison more between Batman and Doc Savage I think they could have had an even better idea of them being two sides of the same coin.

Both have honed themselves to peak perfection, and both have immense wealth and technology at their disposal, but each has become what they are for very different reasons and each has very different extremes that they are willing to go to.

[emb021]

Thanks for elaborating, and seeing your points clarified, I have to say that I don’t think were in too much disagreement about things at all.

I totally agree with your points about the Spirit too – Dolan in particular. I was actually enjoying Cooke’s take on title, before the First Wave reboot.

I overall liked Cooke's take.

The current stuff, with the treatment of Dolan AND the changes in Ebony was pretty bad. I *will* say the most recent story was probably the closest to the classic Spirit story I've read in too long.

I have to say that I never read a single Avenger story so all I have been going on is that I find the back-up stories better written, more engaging stories than the Doc Savage ones.

The problem is that will the Avenger stories may have been better written, because the named the characters after the Avenger and associates, and had them act totally UNLIKE those characters, I couldn't get past it.

The big theme of the Avenger pulps was vengeance & justice. The Avenger and his aides were all touched by tragedy, which brought them together almost like a new family, and they then went after other crooks.

The Avenger was really Richard Henry Benson, an globe trotting adventurer who had done many things and achieve many things, building up a personal fortune. Like many pulp characters, he was somehow supremely exceptional. He married and had a young daughter. On a last minute flight, his wife and daughter disappeared from the plane and everyone claimed he had boarded the plane alone. The shock of that was what paralyzed his face and turned his hair and skin white. This allowed him to mold his face into another's. He would, over the first few novels, gather around him others who formed "Justice, Inc".

* Mac, a pharmacist and chemist, whose family was murdered by gangsters.
* Smitty, a giant of a man and electronic genius, jailed for a crime he didn't commit.
* Nellie Gray, small, delicate, but a great fighter, joined in the next book after her father was killed.
* Josh and Rosabel Newton, a black couple (a first in pulps!) who joined after their employer was murdered. They actually graduated from Tuskegee, so where very smart, but often played the part of domestic help to get information.

They had gadgets thanks to the work of Mac & Smitty. The Avenger carried a pair of unique weapons, a small throwing knife ("Ike") and a weird .22 pistol ("Mike") which he used 'crease' the foreheads of enemies and knock them out.

Moonstone has done one volume of original stories of the Avenger. Am awaiting the second one, as it will include a story of the origin of Mike and Ike!

I completely understand why they made Doc Savage the Superman equivalent in this universe, but your further explanation of the matter highlights for me even more just why it doesn’t work. Doc may well be the epitome of man at his most developed and honed form. Superman is definitely NOT. He’s a superman just because that’s what he is and can’t be anything else. Had they made the comparison more between Batman and Doc Savage I think they could have had an even better idea of them being two sides of the same coin.

Both have honed themselves to peak perfection, and both have immense wealth and technology at their disposal, but each has become what they are for very different reasons and each has very different extremes that they are willing to go to.

Again, there is a whole mythology behind Doc that A. overlooks. Many people have added to it, for good or ill.

We know that Doc was probably born around the turn of the century (a "century baby" to use Planetary terms), and his father, for some reason, had him trained from birth to be a perfect person. All the sciences, including medicine (he is a great surgeon), an engineer and designer, skilled in all forms of armed and unarmed combat. He joined WWI as an aviator, underage. There, he met his aides (all older them him) at a German POW camp. After WWI he completed his education (including numerous degrees). He and his father designed and built the Empire State Building (location of his headquarters).

To keep his physique up, he would go thru an exhaustive daily exercise of a couple of hours, INCLUDING things that would test his mind and senses.

His father disappeared in central america looking for a lost tribe. Doc found them and from them secured a near inexhaustible supply of gold to fund his work. Doc had a world-wide network of companies he owned or controlled. He also had his "Crime College" where he sent criminals for rehabilitation and perhaps brain surgery.

Due to his work, he was given several honorary police and military commissions, which helped smooth the way in his work.

While he never carried a weapon, he did carry a wide range of gadgets and such. Small glass marbles that contained knockout gas, bullet proof undergarments, false finger tips with knockout drugs, etc. They used uv chalk and glasses to leave messages, xray to check out vehicles, etc.

Doc did create a supermachine gun pistol, which his men carried. they could fire different types of rounds, include knockout bullets.

As he owned and had designed the Empire State Building, he put in a special high speed elevator that ran from his HQ to the Hidalgo Trading Company Warehouse, which housed his many vehicles, include a dirigible and small submarine.