CBR: Where The Hell Am I - Jan 5, 2011

[ARCHER9]

Archer, Aaron himself is trying to engage in an argument with Moore's comments. It's kind of the point of his column.

Whether you profess to give a shit or not, Moore wrote Miracleman, Watchmen, From Hell and a shelfful of other books that either changed the direction of popular comics, hold up today as a prime example of the medium, or both. If you're serious about mainstream comics, even if you're somebody who thinks all those cranky old guys can go screw on principle, there's no honest way not to deal with him.

What the fuck ever. I don't care what Moore's written. It still doesn't make him the Authority on what's good and not good in comics. And it certainly doesn't give him the right to insult creators just cuz DC made him wet his pants about Watchmen.

[maniacmatt]

Alan is an over-rated psychopath.
...
However, he's been high on some very potent stuff for the past 40 years at least, and it's high time he started sharing.

[BradRzanka]

...but have you really thought this discussion through? Moore has no "authority", while it's okay for Mr. Aaron to tell Moore to "go fuck himself"? You do realize that many of us arguing in Moore's defense believe that Mr. Moore's comment was entirely minsconstured in a particularly personal way by Mr. Aaron, leading to a response that, on reflection, does make me feel rather bad for Mr. Aaron if he really took it that way (although without excusing his embarassing, petulant reaction.)

[ARCHER9]

...but have you really thought this discussion through? Moore has no "authority", while it's okay for Mr. Aaron to tell Moore to "go fuck himself"? You do realize that many of us arguing in Moore's defense believe that Mr. Moore's comment was entirely minsconstured in a particularly personal way by Mr. Aaron, leading to a response that, on reflection, does make me feel rather bad for Mr. Aaron if he really took it that way (although without excusing his embarassing, petulant reaction.)

Moore basically said most of today's creators aren't good at what they do. How is Aaron supposed to take that?

[Cole Odell]

What the fuck ever. I don't care what Moore's written. It still doesn't make him the Authority on what's good and not good in comics. And it certainly doesn't give him the right to insult creators just cuz DC made him wet his pants about Watchmen.

Archer, defiant pride in one's own ignorance doesn't change that fact that it's ignorance. (Which, ironically, I suppose could be leveled at Moore as well.)

That said, if the guy who wrote Watchmen and From Hell doesn't have the standing to dismiss a group that happens to include someone who apparently wrote some better than average Ghost Rider comics, then who does?

This reminds me of an interview Van Morrison gave a few years ago where he admitted to not listening to contemporary musicians because in his opinion, his generation had done it first and better. People got upset, and sure, Morrison demonstrated a close-mindedness that people don't like to associate with artists, but you know, the guy did Astral Weeks. He doesn't have to keep up with Grizzly Bear and Fleet Foxes.

For me, what comes through in Moore's comments here and elsewhere is a kind of bewilderment. From his POV, he pretty definitively put a period on the end of a sentence--a sentence that writers like Aaron keep adding "and then..." clauses to. And you know, people gotta make a living. Corporations gotta keep trademarks alive. But skilled craftsmen banging out Ultimate Captain America comics in a universe where Alan Moore already happened are not well positioned to take down actual artists.

But as you said, what the fuck ever.

[DasPoppen]

Moore basically said most of today's creators aren't good at what they do. How is Aaron supposed to take that?

Like a man?

With humour?

Shrug his shoulders?

[ARCHER9]

Archer, defiant pride in one's own ignorance doesn't change that fact that it's ignorance. (Which, ironically, I suppose could be leveled at Moore as well.)

That said, if the guy who wrote Watchmen and From Hell doesn't have the standing to dismiss a group that happens to include someone who apparently wrote some better than average Ghost Rider comics, then who does?

This reminds me of an interview Van Morrison gave a few years ago where he admitted to not listening to contemporary musicians because in his opinion, his generation had done it first and better. People got upset, and sure, Morrison demonstrated a close-mindedness that people don't like to associate with artists, but you know, the guy did Astral Weeks. He doesn't have to keep up with Grizzly Bear and Fleet Foxes.

For me, what comes through in Moore's comments here and elsewhere is a kind of bewilderment. From his POV, he pretty definitively put a period on the end of a sentence--a sentence that writers like Aaron keep adding "and then..." clauses to. And you know, people gotta make a living. Corporations gotta keep trademarks alive. But skilled craftsmen banging out Ultimate Captain America comics in a universe where Alan Moore already happened are not well positioned to take down actual artists.

But as you said, what the fuck ever.

So by your logic then, DC and Marvel should both just close up shop because the GREAT Alan Moore won't work for them anymore, since none of today's creators can match his supreme genius.

Again, fuck Alan Moore.

[ARCHER9]

Like a man?

With humour?

Shrug his shoulders?

Well according to all of you, Moore is "allowed" to give his opinion. Then so is Aaron. His opinion just happens to be that Alan Moore can go fuck himself.

[Cole Odell]

Moore basically said most of today's creators aren't good at what they do. How is Aaron supposed to take that?

If he was smart and thinking like a pro interested in art instead of a jilted fan, as an exercise he might think hard about it how any way might possibly be true, and then use it as motivation to write better comics--rather than rationalizing how it couldn't possibly be true, and represents his idol going mental.

Maybe Moore did mean it as in insult. Maybe it is unfair. But for an ambitious artist focused on his work like a laser and confident in his own abilities, what Moore said shouldn't be a problem.

[Cole Odell]

So by your logic then, DC and Marvel should both just close up shop because the GREAT Alan Moore won't work for them anymore, since none of today's creators can match his supreme genius.

Again, fuck Alan Moore.

Not at all what I said. You seem a little too invested in your angry stance to come at this clearly.

[I Grok Spock]

Sorry to say but I think Jason Aaron is overreacting to a months old quote from Alan Moore here.

So I guess we know who'll be the writer of Marvel's eventual The Continuing Adventures of Marvelman series...

I've enjoyed Scalped a lot. It's one of my favorite books. I've enjoyed Aaron's Wolverine stories and I keep meaning to read his run on Ghost Rider too (who'd have thought Wolvie and Ghost Rider; two characters overdone in the 90's would seem fresh again) so he's been doing something right. This just seems like a pointless battle to wage.

I guess if you think have to kill Col. Kurtz, you have to kill Col. Kurtz.

[ARCHER9]

If he was smart and thinking like a pro interested in art instead of a jilted fan, as an exercise he might think hard about it how any way might possibly be true, and then use it as motivation to write better comics--rather than rationalizing how it couldn't possibly be true, and represents his idol going mental.

Maybe Moore did mean it as in insult. Maybe it is unfair. But for an ambitious artist focused on his work like a laser and confident in his own abilities, what Moore said shouldn't be a problem.

Oh so Aaron should just kiss Moore's ass like you all do? Fuck that. That's good if you guys were raised to be passive aggressive sissies but I wasn't. If someone insults me they can expect worse back.

[I Grok Spock]

And really..."Fuck Alan Moore" is taking it a bit too far.

As the late great George Carlin said, "Fuck is the word you wait to use at the end of the argument."

[ARCHER9]

Not at all what I said. You seem a little too invested in your angry stance to come at this clearly.

And you seem a little too invested in your love for Moore to come at this clearly. Especially since the only reason you became a member of this forum was to defend Moore's integrity.

[ARCHER9]

And really..."Fuck Alan Moore" is taking it a bit too far.

As the late great George Carlin said, "Fuck is the word you wait to use at the end of the argument."

Meh. Most of the time I used it was in the last sentences of my posts if that counts.