CBR: Where The Hell Am I - Jan 5, 2011

[the goddamn batman]

Watchmen wasn't even an original idea. It was based on existing characters, which he wasn't allowed to actually use in name, so he changed them a bit.

And he did, flat out, no question, insult the entire creative pool of the comics industry. I'll never say he shouldn't be mad at the people who fucked him over or whatever, but to insult people creating work you won't even read? Fuck that. Plain and simple.

[darknessatnoon]

Alan Moore is basically being a Marxist and insulting Jason Aaron's "class." It's impersonal. He has a problem with the ideological enslavement of the workforce. You can argue with him without personalizing his attack. On the other hand, I recently saw his movie where he acted like this was the first time anyone had ever listened to the stoned ravings of a 70s burnout.

[ian33407]

I like Aaron as a writer and all, but maybe he actually needs to go through the same amount of shit Moore has with Marvel and DC to understand why the old man is so jaded about the two companies and a good deal of the people working for them. Moore does come across as the old man up on the mountain, refusing to come down because he's had enough, but maybe there's good reason for that.

As it is, I think Moore is particularly right that DC and Marvel should be doing more to develop newer properties (although he certainly puts it a little more bluntly than some), and it's a keen observation at a time when DC is becoming increasingly insular. The closure of Wildstorm and the cancellation of Vertigo books means that DC now has more talent to apply to it's standard formula; superhero books. Where's DC's equivalent of Love and Rockets? Of Phonogram? They certainly aren't going to appear in the rapidly dwindling titles of Vertigo.

I do think that Watchmen is perhaps a raw spot for him, but I also think he's right, there; Why should he sit by and say nothing when they've secretly tried to pawn him off with the rights, at the expense of paltry sequels and prequels? Writing a Watchmen sequel is the same as writing a V for Vendetta sequel or prequel; Unnecessary. I also don't think he means to target writers who do have original ideas, like Aaron and Scalped, or someone like Brian Wood and DMZ, but he just wants people to try something new, maybe. I think it's frustrating that someone like Geoff Johns, who can be an amazing writer, just works with company-owned properties, myself. Same for Bendis, who was a lot better when his workload was just Powers and Ultimate Spider-Man.

Moore's just a little too blunt, I guess, but somehow, it feels childish of Aaron to reply with the 'I used to love your work but fuck you' response, just because Moore said something he didn't want to hear.

j'aurais adoré pouvoir dire ( tout ) ceci ( en anglais ) Statham !

it is sad that mr Moore doesn't even understand that some writers and artists could just DREAM to make a WATCHMEN or a MARVELMAN story (as some others would die to do the same with a Todd Mc Farlane creation ); in contrary of a lot of purists i'm pretty convinced that some WATCHMEN sequels could provide some wonderfuls stories ( the Comedian' old days in Nam; Rorschach and Nite Owl team-up : IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ONLY ABOUT MISPLACED NOSTALGIA... ), as for prequels, well, if utopias have no place in comics, i don't know where they could have one anymore ...but i'm not sure that what mr Moore 'fears' the most are the artists, even considering there are yes-men everywhere.

Considering mr Moore' relations with money, i do think he 'insulted' the right persons actually, by telling them to find something else to SELL MORE, or that his answer is another 'thank you' to the whole industry who had been so kind with him.

[Aaron King]

I think Mr. Moore's criticism is directed not at the talent of the comics industry, but at their publishers. Though he could have made his point more directly with less acerbic sarcasm, I agree with him. The top-flight talent of the comic book industry should be focused more on creating new, original works rather than creating prequels and sequels to existing works. Or at least not the works of a creator not interested in having others expand on his original ideas.

This is exactly what I came here to say. I think Moore is saying, "Hey, guys with the money, shouldn't you be using all that financial weight to push the great things you already have?" To me, when Moore says that there surely must be something comparable to Watchmen, he means it. He might not have read it, but he assumes there's stuff out there that they can turn into blockbuster movies that doesn't just rehash his old work.

[BrotherUnitNo_4]

Everyone's quick to point fingers at the publishers, but what are the publishers supposed to do if the consumers don't support the new ideas?

If more new properties received the community support of Batman, Spider-man, the Avengers or Green Lantern are we really to believe that DC and Marvel wouldn't push those properties every way they could think of?

[Paul Render]

If Jason ever actually reads these comments, dude you're a good writer, but you took his comment way too personally. Chill.

Maybe after being in the biz as long as he has you may be making the same statement someday. The best thing you can do is prove him wrong and make something as good as Watchmen. Scalped is possibly you're best book, but its no Watchmen. Keep trying though, of all DC's writers you could be the guy.

I like your articles all in all though. That one about putting together a pitch was great.

[BrotherUnitNo_4]

This is exactly what I came here to say. I think Moore is saying, "Hey, guys with the money, shouldn't you be using all that financial weight to push the great things you already have?" To me, when Moore says that there surely must be something comparable to Watchmen, he means it. He might not have read it, but he assumes there's stuff out there that they can turn into blockbuster movies that doesn't just rehash his old work.

Well we had two examples of new properties that got the blockbuster treatment in the last year - Scott Pilgrim and Kick-ass.

One of those managed to be fairly successful given the budget, while the other, not so much. Then you look at the success that the Spider-man franchise, the Nolan Batman and Iron Man has had, and you ask yourself, which of those is worth putting financial muscle behind. I mean, Spider-man 3 made back more than half it's reported production budget in one weekend. Heck Wolverine Origins managed to do the same even though the consensus on X3 was that it sucked.

As much as we all call for new ideas and support of new properties the truth of the matter is the majority don't seem to want it. Even in the publishing arm, how many new books has Marvel dropped from "ongoing to miniseries" in the last year?

[chrisgiff]

Moore's comments on the current talent in the comics industry are harsh BUT he does have a point about the whole creating their own new ideas thing. The problem is that this IS actually happening if you look closely. Moore just doesn't see it because he is too blinded by his hate for how he thinks the industry has disrespected him and his work.

There ARE great new ideas out there, one in particular written by Jason Aaron himself-Scalped. I think that book will go down as a classic and we will all talk about it in a nostalgic manner years after it is finished the same way we talk about some of Moore's books.

In the end, I sympathize with both sides. I think Moore has probably been pestered for years and years and is just tired of it all. I give him the benefit of doubt because of that. I'm sure he gets countless questions about Watchmen sequels and movie adaptations of his other works every week, but I also get where Jason is coming from-It sucks to have an idol basically tell you that you are shit without even knowing you.

I guess you can sum it up with:

HATERS GONNA HATE

[Kick-Ass]

Nothing Moore is known for is original. He takes other peoples ideas in every book he does. He needs to create something original before he tells other people to do the same.

Top 10 does not hold up at all. Re-reading issue #1 is a horribly jumbled mess.

And he says, "Why is Marvel re-printing my old Marvel-Man comics?" It's called re-prints! I buy re-prints all the time. Old graphic novels, with older content. Yes, it's called re-prints. It's being published because people like reading old books often. What a ma-roon!!

[Mikey Brown]

This was awesome. Good job Jason Aaron, there are some great comics coming out these days. Jason is one of my favorite writers today. Moore is good, but hes not the god of comics like he thinks he is. Marvel and DC is doing fine without him.

[Mr_Wayne]

[Schnitzy Pretzelpants]

Everyone's quick to point fingers at the publishers, but what are the publishers supposed to do if the consumers don't support the new ideas?

If more new properties received the community support of Batman, Spider-man, the Avengers or Green Lantern are we really to believe that DC and Marvel wouldn't push those properties every way they could think of?

I agree with you, but also feel that at DC, seldom are such stories given a chance at being fostered, to find an audience, etc.

That’s where I think with ICON, Marvel has DC beat, it does allow creator’s to flex within the company fold.

I think that both companies have are truly not hearing consumer wants though, in terms of event-drive burnout on the part of their readership.

It seems to me that both companies are more than willing to lose (and it seems to me that many sales figures support this) their more faithful readers if it means getting a sales bump/spike from some tiresome event.

I have gone from almost being exclusively DC to being mostly Marvel these days. I don’t think that Marvel is doing any less event-driven stuff, but somehow they have a few things going for them that have drawn me away from DC.

1) ICON
2) They seem to have found a happy medium after their last company-wide event Siege, to make their universe status-quo enough that as a reader I can now concentrate on just reading a title and following just that title’s thread.
3) They seem to have enough titles for me that are self-contained storylines: Captain America can be read without needing additional comics, Daredevil used to be this way, their space stories, etc

DC, has lost me. I feel that since Infinite Crisis they have been playing a very cynical game of saying “this is the ending….no – fooled ‘ya! This is the ending! – fooled you again! This is the ending!”

The analogy I use with fellow comic book nerd-friends is that it’s like DC keeps shifting the goal-post farther down the field. They don’t seem to get that when you try desperately (as desperately as they are) to get us to read EVERYTHING/EVERY TITLE, that they are also making it really easy for some us to opt to read NOTHING.

That’s why DC is only currently getting my money for two titles – REBELS and Generation Lost. I was reading Batman and Robin, but post-Return of Bruce Wayne, I feel like they are trying to con me into buying all Bat titles. I bought a few initial post-Return titles, but now I think I am done, I didn’t feel any had a quality that was good enough to merit buying them anymore.

[gaetanomontera]

"Watchmen wasn't even an original idea. It was based on existing characters, which he wasn't allowed to actually use in name, so he changed them a bit."

Exactly. This is actually one complaint that I have about his work-it's almost completely admittedly derivative of other stuff:

Very little of his creations have completely original ideas-they're all homages or takes on existing concepts (and I know we could argue endlessly about the originality or any idea).

But then he expects that no one will stand on his shoulders and do anything that reflects the sensibilities that he made popular. It's a very egotistical argument.

That being said, it is Alan Moore. As much as I'm a huge fan of Jason's work, he is throwing down the gauntlet with a giant of storytelling. But I think Jason made his respect for Moore's work obvious.

That being said, I'm happy for Mr. Aaron that Moore will likely never read this or care.

[Flash Gordon]

They say to never meet your heroes, perhaps this is a case of that?

While I think there are a lot of great writers in the industry, I don't think they create a lot of great stuff. Now, that might come across as harsh, but let me explain.

Take Bendis for example, he's done some grand stuff and some awful crap. Look at Torso compared to Avengers, there's no comparison! Then you have his newest book Scarlett, which is pretty great, and New Avengers. One is generic and old hat, and one is a creator working to put on something creative.

Think about all Geoff Johns could do if he didn't just rehash older material with a new spin? There is no denying that, that man is a talented writer. I like Flash a lot, but his endless need to work continuity around his story instead of working his story around continuity is tiresome. The Big Two are just going through the motions right now. I buy a LOT of Vertigo comics, and now that we are on the brink of the end of that imprint, it feels as if DC is losing a huge asset.

Alan Moore has been dicked around so much, that he has become bitter. He is not without reason. Plus, the statement was not really a slight towards creators, but more of a jab at the companies that house them. He's saying that there is not enough new air at the Big Two, and therefore they have to jerk around his stories from yesteryear. Although, as a fellow writer, I can totally see why Aaron is taking the blow. It is hurtful to see that your hero has been let down by the work of you and your peers. It is not personal though. He probably, in all honesty, has never read the great Scalped series or any of the other stuff Aaron has done. Therefore, he has no real concrete opinion on that said work, just on the downward spiral that the comic book industry is in. You cannot deny that the comic book industry isn't sliding backwards down a slope. It's true.

If JD Salinger, gods rest his soul, were to come out and say that my prose was weak, I'd probably consider tossing in my pen. I can't say if it would affect my enjoyment of Franny and Zooey but it would still be a staggering blow. Alan Moore has more than a point though; I think it's far too easy to dismiss the man as a crazy old man on a mountaintop and that's really unfair.

[alf911]

Too bad nobody working today can produce work on par with that brilliant Badrock/Violator crossover, huh?

There's something bizarre about the man complaining about people not coming up with new characters when some of his most well-received works in recent years (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Lost Girls) were based entirely on the concept of writing new stories about long-established literary characters. And as has already been pointed out, Watchmen was basically based on existing characters too. Revisiting old ideas isn't an inherent evil.

I think Aaron has a right to feel offended by one of his idols presuming that he and his co-workers are not talented, and to call him out for making a truly ignorant statement about them and their work. And Moore's whole argument seems based on some flawed presumptions about the state of the comic book industry. If someone produced a work as great as Watchmen today, you'd be lucky if 50,000 people read it and you could find a single copy in a bookstore, unless it got adapted into a big-budget movie. Even with a movie, Moore's own great From Hell has made no significant impact from what I can see. And most of the time when Marvel or DC gets behind a great new idea these days, what happens? Nobody buys it. They keep it alive for as long as they can afford to and then it dies quietly. If audiences bought it, they'd be putting it out. Simple as that. It's not about talent, or lack thereof. It's about what the market will support.