Tom Brevoort on Superman

[SubjectDelta]

Yet her job and using it to aid Superman was her entire role in Perez's six issue arc, with that sexual tension you speak of on the other hand being one scene at the end of the first issue single panel at the very end of the sixth issue.

That doesn't really jive with your contention that love interest pales in comparison to the role her job plays. You seem to be trying to defend Lois's position as a possible love interest like having her do anything else is some sort of massive threat to your preferred ship. But that's never been the argument. I've only argued that she's more than just that.

Anybody: jimmy olson or perry white, can put images on a screen so in a way she's been down graded from the ggreatest love interest ever to a cameraman.

[misslane38]

It's more than that, if superman's married then he has to be pretty satisfied with his life, because he's got pretty much everything he wants in the world already. Unless you wanna do superman in an unhappy marriage, which i don't think anyone wants.

Did you even read the quote I posted from Bryan Q. Miller? If you had, I'm sure you would have read that being married is not a state of perfection. Marriages generate just as much conflict as single characters. As Miller said, when writing marriage, conflict comes when the married couple must cope with external forces threatening to rip them apart or push them to their limits. This isn't about writing an unhappy marriage, but a marriage that reflects the very real challenges Superman and Lois Lane would face as a couple.

edit: and Superman's sales are bad because its a bad book

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Bad writing leads to bad books and bad sales. I don't think marriage makes or breaks a story.

[misslane38]

I like the new Superman for the first time in the new 52, Action and JL and I really hope they keep him single for a long time to come, and I hope DC don't listen to grumpy old fans or fans hooked on shows like Lois and Clark and Smallville of all things as to the direction Superman needs to go. And do you have to read about Lois all the time to even like Superman or for him to work for you as a fan? Not at all. I would like to see other characters for a change. DC's first objective is Superman and all else comes in second. There are other titles not even focusing on lovey dovey stuff but building their characters and they rocking.

I'm not arguing against writing Superman single for a while. I understand the need for change and the need to start over from the beginning. I simply do not agree with the notion that marriage ruins Superman or that being married fundamentally destroys the core of the character. I believe both good and bad stories can be written with a married or a single Superman. And I believe making Lois Lane a strong supporting character is a key ingredient in the best Superman stories.

[shingi70]

Well smallville supes was single for large periods of the show and never got married just a committed relationship.

Mindanao hoping Clark gets with Lucy.

[SubjectDelta]

Another thing to point out, the sexual tension, if any, is from Clark not Lois. She's celebrating when Clark knocks on her door. She tells him to go celebrate. I don't see a single time in which her concern for Clark is anything but as friends. In fact, when we do see concern for him, its tied to the job and his performance. She's not jealous or even wondering if he ever celebrated. As for Superman, he's news and seen as a hero to her. Of course she has an interest but so far its nothing other than hero worship... and getting the story. She's far more concerned for the people working under her than Superman.

Assuming that's true, which its not, so what? Shed HIS love interest.

[petesake]

Did you even read the quote I posted from Bryan Q. Miller? If you had, I'm sure you would have read that being married is not a state of perfection. Marriages generate just as much conflict as single characters. As Miller said, when writing marriage, conflict comes when the married couple must cope with external forces threatening to rip them apart or push them to their limits. This isn't about writing an unhappy marriage, but a marriage that reflects the very real challenges Superman and Lois Lane would face as a couple.



Yes, that's exactly what I said. Bad writing leads to bad books and bad sales. I don't think marriage makes or breaks a story.

I read the quote but I don't agree with him. I mean obviously marriage, like any relationship, has its ups and downs. But in the end the only way for superman to feel truly lonely or not have exactly what he wants in the world is for him to a) not be married or b) have his marriage really really suck. Because what he really wants from the world is to be happy with lois.

I'm not sure that clark being married RUINS the character or anything, I mean it's not exactly a betrayal of his character. But it's definitely limiting in some ways. And, btw, smallville superman is not very convincing evidence that he works married or whatever. 1, smallville's superman was pretty bad and 2, even they thought 'ok the wedding is the end of the show guys'

[misslane38]

I read the quote but I don't agree with him. I mean obviously marriage, like any relationship, has its ups and downs. But in the end the only way for superman to feel truly lonely or not have exactly what he wants in the world is for him to a) not be married or b) have his marriage really really suck. Because what he really wants from the world is to be happy with lois.

Superman's loneliness has never, in my mind, come from isolating him from humanity via disconnecting him from deep, honest, and committed relationships with people he cares about. His loneliness is a product of being the last of his race and a hero with immense amounts of responsibility to Earth and the universe. He's lonely not because he cannot marry Lois Lane, but because he cannot be with his wife whenever he pleases. He has to make sacrifices and having something like time with one's wife to sacrifice underscores the theme of loneliness rather than detracts from it, in my opinion. Ultimately, Superman is lonely because no one else truly understands what it's like to be him. If anything, I believe Supergirl detracts from the concept of Superman as a "lonely" figure. In addition, if Superman is to be a genuinely lonely character, then he mustn't have close friends either, right? So no Justice League for Superman or Jimmy Olsen for Clark Kent. A guy with friends can't truly be alone.

I'm not sure that clark being married RUINS the character or anything, I mean it's not exactly a betrayal of his character. But it's definitely limiting in some ways.

How exactly does marriage limit Superman? I believe the only thing marriage limits is Superman's freedom to date other women.

And, btw, smallville superman is not very convincing evidence that he works married or whatever. 1, smallville's superman was pretty bad and 2, even they thought 'ok the wedding is the end of the show guys'

I never argued Smallville was evidence of anything. I quoted the author of the new Smallville: Season 11 comic, which is obviously not the same thing as using the show as evidence. It was just one writer's thoughts on a controversial topic. In any case, Smallville didn't have a pretty bad Superman because Superman didn't exist on the show until the last few minutes of the very last episode and the show ended with the wedding because it was an origin story and it ended when Clark became Superman. Lois and Clark were living together as an engaged couple for most of the final season, however.

[petesake]

I just pointed out some ways that it's limiting, particularly the loneliness thing. That you're actually saying superman can be written as more lonely when he's married is, of course, totally absurd and disingenuous of you. Lois is what he most wants in life. Without her, life is more sucky. So if you want to write that, and there's legitimate reasons to make Superman more outsider-ish and less 'i have a perfect life', then it's at least very very hard to do that with him married.

[misslane38]

I just pointed out some ways that it's limiting, particularly the loneliness thing.

And I explained how the essence of what makes Superman a lonely hero is not something that is eliminated once he is married. I also explained how Superman cannot truly be a lonely hero if he has friends like Jimmy or Bruce or family like Kara Zor-El. Singling out marriage as the one thing that stands in the way between a lonely Superman and Superman that is not lonely is a flawed argument, in my opinion.

That you're actually saying superman can be written as more lonely when he's married is, of course, totally absurd and disingenuous of you. Lois is what he most wants in life. Without her, life is more sucky.

How is it absurd and ridiculous? If Superman wants Lois and is even married to her yet must frequently sacrifice time with her and his relationship with her to serve humanity, then that is a condition that begets loneliness. Superman can have a wife who means everything to him, but if he has to live without her for extended periods of time or he must risk disappointing her (even if she understands) by leaving her behind, then the loss and disconnection is felt more keenly than if Superman never had Lois at all.

So if you want to write that, and there's legitimate reasons to make Superman more outsider-ish and less 'i have a perfect life', then it's at least very very hard to do that with him married.

Superman's married life with Lois was never perfect and marrying her did not make Superman any less of an outsider. Marrying Lois did not change the fact that Superman was an alien and it did not change the fact that he was the last of his race.

[petesake]

I think you're ignoring the obvious facts that don't support your own opinion on the subject.

[Fate's Faith]

I wonder how people feel about the marriage just in terms of Lois herself. We've heard it can limit stories with Superman as well as those saying it doesn't. But what does Lois get out of it? Did it improve her character or, if you feel Superman is better without it, is she also? Just thinking how marriage should improve both people's lives or why do it. I'm not sure she got the improvement which may be why the marriage was such a problem for some writers since it didn't speak to the truth of marriage. While Superman got someone to share his burden with didn't she just get burdened?

[kylesgirl]

I'm not arguing against writing Superman single for a while. I understand the need for change and the need to start over from the beginning. I simply do not agree with the notion that marriage ruins Superman or that being married fundamentally destroys the core of the character. I believe both good and bad stories can be written with a married or a single Superman. And I believe making Lois Lane a strong supporting character is a key ingredient in the best Superman stories.

But aren't the same person griping about the fact that Lois is not seen and heard enough in Action Comics? That somehow she supposed to be everywhere Superman is? I know I read that was one of your gripes. Thing is she does not have to be. Action is about a young Superman and I want to read about him. Not Lois Lane. Nor her trailing Superman. Morrison does not have to force her in where it is not necessary. I don't need her cluttering up the pages too like she did in Superman title stalking him on her laptop. It was annoying and the love sick Clark mooning over her was stupid way to set up Superman. That's why I couldn't stand those issues by Perez.

I think you need to make up your mind what you complaining about. You say you want Lois as a strong independent character and when they give you that...you still gripe. It's as if you actually you want her in Clark's face all the time. If Lois was really independent then she should be able to sustain stories herself and arcs herself and not relying on shadowing Superman/Clark. Flashpoint was an attempt to try to sell her but it was a cheat as far as I see because they use Superman and the Amazons and Wonder Woman as a crutch. To be honest she is a typical kind of love interest type of dynamic that bores me to death so and I don't care that much for her... it really does not bother me at all if I don't see her.

[SubjectDelta]

I don't know what is so limiting about marriage? What does supes have to gain from hopping from one woman to another...other than a std.

You might as well say he is limited by being heteerosexual. Imagine all the new readers you could gain by having a fresh continuity free relationship between supes and batman?

What kkills me

[SubjectDelta]

What kills me is that this (not) new 52 nonsense is all bs.

Assuming that Superman HAS to be isolated, there are a plethora of ways to do it without a reboot. But that would lend weight to a deeper continuity and right now dc wants to create an illusion of being new and fresh in the most imagination free way possible... going back to the way things were decades ago.

And now they want to make him moree like the other grimmer characters so he will be easier to write. He is being degenerated into a generic shade and fans are buying yhis rationalization.

[Sacred Knight]

Except he's not being written as grim, not even close.