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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I couldn't afford comics in the 1980's or 1990's. Still struggling now.

    Mark_S

    Okay that one made me feel bad. I wish you the best of luck and financial security.

  2. #77
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleX View Post
    Okay that one made me feel bad. I wish you the best of luck and financial security.
    I'm better off now, good job with benefits, it'll just take me a while to get all the back issues as I go to comic book shows. Sometimes I think that may be the best way, a bad story is easier to dismiss at .50 or 1.00 than it is at 2.99.

    Mark_S

  3. #78
    Senior Member Hamdinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I'm better off now, good job with benefits, it'll just take me a while to get all the back issues as I go to comic book shows. Sometimes I think that may be the best way, a bad story is easier to dismiss at .50 or 1.00 than it is at 2.99.

    Mark_S
    Oh man, that is so true!

  4. #79
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamdinger View Post
    Oh man, that is so true!
    Another great part about it is that it gives a chance to see quick time how comics has evolved in the past two decades. When I compare Diana as drawn in the Silver Age to the Diana drawn in the late 1980's and then the early 1990's... interesting. Bracelets get bigger, shorts get... well shorter for lack of a better word.

    Mark_S

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I'm better off now, good job with benefits, it'll just take me a while to get all the back issues as I go to comic book shows. Sometimes I think that may be the best way, a bad story is easier to dismiss at .50 or 1.00 than it is at 2.99.

    Mark_S

    edited to avoid trouble
    Last edited by Manic_Mark; 01-01-2011 at 12:35 AM.

  6. #81
    Power with girl is better Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal! View Post
    Superman killed 3 faux Kryptonians
    Guy Gardner killed Major Force (temporarily)
    Black Canary killed Everyman (even believing him to be Green Arrow at the time!)
    Catwoman killed Black Mask
    Manhunter Kate Spencer killed Copperhead
    Jack Knight killed the Mist's son
    All Green Lanterns have obscene amounts of rainbow-colored corps blood on their hands

    If all of these instances were treated with little to no regard by police or the super-hero community, why was Wonder Woman so out of line when she killed Max?
    I'm not familiar with most of these. The general public didn't know about Superman killing the three Kryptonians and, in typical DC fashion, it's been retconned out of existence. That's why Superman was so high and mighty with WW about killing. His history has been retconned yet again so apparently that never happened.

  7. #82
    Power with girl is better Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Just for the record, I found out years later that the killing of the three faux Kryptonians by Supes was at the time met with general outrage among most Superfans. It was John Byrnes last issue on the title, and has since been retconned out of continuity.
    Yes, a lot of people were outraged. Rumors abound.
    Byrne wanted to make him more like the Golden Age Superman who had fewer qualms about killing and did it several times.
    Byrne felt that Superman needed a good reason to develop an absolute code against killing. Most of us wouldn't kill unless absolutely necessary but cops and soldiers sometimes have to kill. So Superman should see what it's like and promise himself, "Never again".

    At any rate, I thought it was rather lousy to wait until your last issue and then do it when you won't have to deal with it but the next writer will. I don't know when but apparently some writer along the way just removed it from history, perhaps due to most fans simply not accepting it.

  8. #83
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Yes, a lot of people were outraged. Rumors abound.
    Byrne wanted to make him more like the Golden Age Superman who had fewer qualms about killing and did it several times.
    Byrne felt that Superman needed a good reason to develop an absolute code against killing. Most of us wouldn't kill unless absolutely necessary but cops and soldiers sometimes have to kill. So Superman should see what it's like and promise himself, "Never again".

    At any rate, I thought it was rather lousy to wait until your last issue and then do it when you won't have to deal with it but the next writer will. I don't know when but apparently some writer along the way just removed it from history, perhaps due to most fans simply not accepting it.
    It's annoying, because it led to Exile, which was a great story, but I hated that Superman had killed. Now we seem to be getting the best of both worlds as Legion of 3 Worlds references the pocket universe stuf, but it's been said Superman has never killed again. Personally, I go with Time Trapper giving Supes false memories of having killed the fauz Zoners to try and drive him mad and destroy his legacy, thus cutting off the Legions inspiration early.
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  9. #84
    The Central Sca-rutinizer Pól Rua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal! View Post
    Superman killed 3 faux Kryptonians
    Guy Gardner killed Major Force (temporarily)
    Black Canary killed Everyman (even believing him to be Green Arrow at the time!)
    Catwoman killed Black Mask
    Manhunter Kate Spencer killed Copperhead
    Jack Knight killed the Mist's son
    All Green Lanterns have obscene amounts of rainbow-colored corps blood on their hands

    If all of these instances were treated with little to no regard by police or the super-hero community, why was Wonder Woman so out of line when she killed Max?
    You're overthinking it.
    It's just bad writing, straight up. Basically, the powers-that-be decided that Wonder Woman had to kill Maxwell Lord and be censured by the superhuman community in the process, so they hamfistedly shoehorned the plot in there, painting the character in a corner.

    Seriously, whenever you see a character screaming, "You have to kill me! If you lock me up, I'll just get out! I know where you live! I know where your wives and children go to school!" , I automatically roll my eyes.
    They did it with the Skrulls in 'Secret Invasion', with Doctor Light in 'Identity Crisis', and each time, it was a ham-fisted attempt by a writer to justify incredibly out-of-character actions so that their ill-conceived plot makes 'sense'.

    Why did the superhuman community condemn Wonder Woman for this? Because they had to for the script to work.

    Bad writing, pure and simple.

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pól Rua View Post
    You're overthinking it.
    It's just bad writing, straight up. Basically, the powers-that-be decided that Wonder Woman had to kill Maxwell Lord and be censured by the superhuman community in the process, so they hamfistedly shoehorned the plot in there, painting the character in a corner.

    Seriously, whenever you see a character screaming, "You have to kill me! If you lock me up, I'll just get out! I know where you live! I know where your wives and children go to school!" , I automatically roll my eyes.
    They did it with the Skrulls in 'Secret Invasion', with Doctor Light in 'Identity Crisis', and each time, it was a ham-fisted attempt by a writer to justify incredibly out-of-character actions so that their ill-conceived plot makes 'sense'.

    Why did the superhuman community condemn Wonder Woman for this? Because they had to for the script to work.

    Bad writing, pure and simple.
    And we have another winner! The more and more I go over the storyline, the more and more transparent the issue becomes to me.

    Was Wonder Woman right to kill Max Lord? Absolutely. Anyone (yes, anyone) would have. Obviously. Hell - I would have, and I, like, never kill people. So what's the point? So a portion of fans can bask in how "cool" it is and proclaim it is because "Wonder Woman's a warrior, dammit!" And when you have characters (the same characters who were cool with watching her slay a gorgon n live TV) written as objecting what she did for no better reason than to object to it, and with no other arguments than maybe some vague references to finding "a better way," you have a story that's not being completely honest.

    And then she spent the entirety of Infinite Crisis being treated like crap and everything was better. Yay!

    The simple fact is that the controversy was manufactured so that people like us could keep arguing about it in places like this years later. Congratulations, DC. But when dealing with a fanbase that practically can't seem to agree on what shape Wonder Woman's earrings should be, was it really a good idea to further divide them in this way?
    Last edited by Mayowa; 01-05-2011 at 03:24 AM.

  11. #86
    E = p(orn) x C(offee)˛ Finganforn's Avatar
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    @Mayowa: that is exactly the problem with this 'recent' over use of 'shocking' plot lines and events (if you can call them anything close to a plot). They can make buzz and bust sales momentarily, but on the long run they have either an ignorable influence or they damage. When people start to rely mostly on them, either nothing gets really changed overtime and natural degradation rules unchallenged, or consecutive damage speeds up the fall.
    [/sarcasm]

  12. #87
    Senior Member Lorendiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pól Rua View Post
    You're overthinking it.
    It's just bad writing, straight up. Basically, the powers-that-be decided that Wonder Woman had to kill Maxwell Lord and be censured by the superhuman community in the process, so they hamfistedly shoehorned the plot in there, painting the character in a corner.
    "Bad writing" and "bad editing" are certainly my preferred answers to this nagging question. They have been for years!

    Although I had a slightly different take on it -- my point was that such extreme reactions made some of her fellow heroes (Superman in particular) look painfully hypocritical (and/or moronic) because that story was far from being the first time that the Post-COIE Diana was known for a fact to have killed sentient enemies when it struck her as being the right way to go! If Supes had never said much about it on any of several previous occasions, why should he suddenly start gaping in shock when faced with the "horrifying discovery" that a trained-and-true Amazon warrior princess was ready, willing, and able to use deadly force on her most dangerous adversaries?

    Years ago, I solicited the help of my fellow fans (I think on this very forum, as well as on other sites) in compiling a list of all the previous occasions on which Diana had used lethal force against sentient enemies. The results are still available here on CBR as:

    Timeline of Wonder Woman's Killings, Post-Crisis

    (It got a fair amount of comment from my fellow fans at the time, but I guess now everyone has forgotten about it! )
    Last edited by Lorendiac; 04-04-2012 at 10:29 AM.

  13. #88
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorendiac View Post
    "Bad writing" and "bad editing" are certainly my preferred answers to this nagging question. They have been for years!
    Mine too. Having recently read the issues involved, I think they put Diana in a no-win situation. If she allows Max to live, she puts the whole world at risk. If she kills him, she's villified. Like a true hero, she choose to bear the burden. Unfortunately, no one saw her personal sacrifice. They didn't even try. I've always thought one reason Bruce comes across as angry is he knows he could stop so much death from the Joker if he'd just kill him but he knows if he kills him he'd probably find a way to justify killing someone like the Riddler. He's angry because the world gives him a choice of forever chasing the Joker or becoming just like him. Of all of them, I think Batman and Superman should have been there for Diana since they face the same difficult choice and she didn't play the safe side. She crossed the line but no one believed she couldn't have simply stepped back over it. Not even herself judging from what came after.

  14. #89
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pól Rua View Post
    You're overthinking it.
    It's just bad writing, straight up. Basically, the powers-that-be decided that Wonder Woman had to kill Maxwell Lord and be censured by the superhuman community in the process, so they hamfistedly shoehorned the plot in there, painting the character in a corner.
    Actually i didn't mind the story point. She was put in a tough situation & she made a judgement call. Good on her i say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pól Rua View Post
    Seriously, whenever you see a character screaming, "You have to kill me! If you lock me up, I'll just get out! I know where you live! I know where your wives and children go to school!" , I automatically roll my eyes.
    They did it with the Skrulls in 'Secret Invasion', with Doctor Light in 'Identity Crisis', and each time, it was a ham-fisted attempt by a writer to justify incredibly out-of-character actions so that their ill-conceived plot makes 'sense'.
    Sometimes its used so a hero can find an alternative way & show themselves to be an even bigger hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pól Rua View Post
    Why did the superhuman community condemn Wonder Woman for this? Because they had to for the script to work.
    The Superhuman community didn't. Quite a few of them understood... It was Superman & Batman who condemmed & even Superman was questionable, since he kind of understood (he was in the same situation wit Zod). It was more that the general public condemned, for exactly the same reason that the readership did. They expected something unreasonable from Diana: They expected perfection & it turned out that Diana was just a person... Who knew.

  15. #90
    Junior Member Sk8maven's Avatar
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    Did you ever read "The Cold Equations", by Tom Godwin? It was considered a masterpiece when it was first published - but it has since been thoroughly deconstructed to show that the writer rigged the dice massively to tell the story the way he wanted it to come out. Among other things, it can now be taken as a horror story about the careless cruelty of big corporations who accept the deaths of innocents as part of the costs of doing business and do not one single damned thing to mitigate those costs.
    Last edited by Sk8maven; 04-04-2012 at 07:55 PM.
    Everything I state is JUST MY OPINION. Take what you like and leave the rest.

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