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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    But are mom and dad grabbing the pitchforks in looking at the comics now ? Or have they considering TV is just as voilent and bad ? Hell look at the voilent SAW movies...many parents would take their kids to see them watch people get tortured savagely.
    They aren't, and as we've all suggested, the comic market isn't aimed at younger readers. If it were aimed at kids, there would be an uproar. Comics and TV differ a lot. Sadly, most people view TV as a necessity, and parents have largely just accepted what goes on TV, as a necessary evil. Comics are considered a luxury item, and if parents would be allowing and choosing to spend money on comics, they would be less tolerant of questionable material.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Plus the kids of today aren't as fragile towards voilence as you would suspect. Many can handle what they see in a comic now.
    This statement makes me sad. Mostly because it's true. As i mentioned above though i think there is a difference. I would liken it more to video games, a lot of parents still won't buy a kid an overly violent video game. The psych side of me would suggest parents allow violent TV content, because they themselves use the TV, and don't want to seem too hypocritical by condeming TV, and the content. While most don't play violent video games or read comics and therefore condem the violent/adult content without guilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Also just because you go to an "All-Ages" concept doesn't mean instant sales. The comic book buying audiance is older and have aged more. It could alienate the crowd already buying the comics now to try and step back to thinking you can lure a younger crowd.
    I agree. It does open up the potential of getting readers from an otherwise untapped demographic. And truthfully, comics don't need to be as gritty as they have been. I mean, i can do without Spiderman/Peter having a druken hook-up. That takes away from the character to me. I just don't like that all heros in books now are being cast in a light that makes them seem, all-too-human, and mistake prone. There is a place for characters like that, and a place for heros making all the right choices. Don't get me wrong i like seeing characters with moral dilemas of being a super-hero, it's just being overplayed, every character is having to wrestle with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Plus this younger crowd has books geared towards them with the Johnny DC , Marvel Adventures line. Thats there for them currently.
    And those books do okay, in some cases they've done really well. If you open the market up, keeping some titles more mature themed, you can tame some of the other titles down a bit, and get more readers interested. I can't imagine too many fans are going to walk away from X-men because the artist and writers cut out all of the ridiculous sexual innuendo between Scott and Emma


    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Heroes age and change as people as the world grows. The generation now see the not so perfect as heroes. Because they are human and have problems.
    True. It just feels like every mainstream comic hero is going through all the same changes and difficult moral dilemas. Sometimes, it's just good writing to see heros be good heros and good people in the face of the adversity. Making them seem human and prone to error, may be more relatable, and makes for some great stories. It's just too much use of this has me tired of seeing it with every character. Too much Watchmen influence. (i love Watchmen, but the device is just being over used)

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    A perfect example of the growing change in heroes is the Pro Wrestling business. With its good heroes vs bad villains. Hulk Hogan in the 80's preaches the whole "Say your prayers and take your vitamins" mantra. In the 90's it changed to Stone Cold Steve Austin who preached "DTA , Don't Trust Anybody...and Austin 3:16 Means I just whupped your ass !"
    I don't too much care for the wrestling analogy. I think the demographics are just too different. There is a lot of wit and thought that has to go into a lot of comic stories. At the end of the day, wrestling is all about action. Storylines in wrestling are tacked on at best. Comics more often than not require you to think, and wrestling, really doesn't.

    You are right in peoples taste in heros. It seems that people like their heros to be imperfect, and wrestling does illustrate that well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Its the changing era's really. Heroes have to change , have shades of grey now. Because being so perfect and good...well people see thru it.

    I don't know if it's that people see thru it, or they just relate easier. The era has changed, and not just comics. People like to see grey versus black and white. I feel that with some heros, they just need to be black and white. They just need to be able to embody all that is good and just, and inspite of all the bad things around them, prove you can make the right choice and stand for what's right. We just don't see as many heros like that anymore. I think Spidey was the best example of this, yes he made the one big mistake, (as he views it) but it made Spidey a hero that stood for something, and was near-incoruptable. He still had his struggles, but they were in his day to day life, not as Spidey. I feel Peter in particular has sullied the Spiderman book with his out of character selfish and terrible descision making, that it has lost some of it's luster.

    I digress. Comics just aren't marketed to kids, and above is an example that most younger kids wouldn't understand why Spiderman did something bad. When a kid, or someone knows someone like Deadpool is crazy, and an anti-hero, it is easier to accept and explain that a character like this is a loose canon, or prone to making bad decsions, and some good ones. There is a place for every type of character, it just seems to me, that every character is moving towards the middle.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryuluddy View Post
    They aren't, and as we've all suggested, the comic market isn't aimed at younger readers. If it were aimed at kids, there would be an uproar. Comics and TV differ a lot. Sadly, most people view TV as a necessity, and parents have largely just accepted what goes on TV, as a necessary evil. Comics are considered a luxury item, and if parents would be allowing and choosing to spend money on comics, they would be less tolerant of questionable material.
    Of course with DVR's , DVD's , Netflix and Blue Ray's TV viewing is a luxery now. Sure some parents watch their kids and moniter what they watch. But how many don't ? Plus even if you got parents to pick up the titles for their kids , how many would actually care if little Jim and Joe read "Kick-Ass" ?

    This statement makes me sad. Mostly because it's true. As i mentioned above though i think there is a difference. I would liken it more to video games, a lot of parents still won't buy a kid an overly violent video game. The psych side of me would suggest parents allow violent TV content, because they themselves use the TV, and don't want to seem too hypocritical by condeming TV, and the content. While most don't play violent video games or read comics and therefore condem the violent/adult content without guilt.
    With parents they likely would view a Kick-Ass as a voilent Grand Theft Auto video game for kids. They won't care because its cartoon voilence told in a story. Its a shame but each generation matures more than we know.

    And those books do okay, in some cases they've done really well. If you open the market up, keeping some titles more mature themed, you can tame some of the other titles down a bit, and get more readers interested. I can't imagine too many fans are going to walk away from X-men because the artist and writers cut out all of the ridiculous sexual innuendo between Scott and Emma
    Thats the thing though....people get alienated if you "talk down to them" in essance. If you try and make things so ...PG rated they will balk because they aren't kids. You have to watch how far you go to try and make things not look silly or at least talk to the older audiance on their level.

    The market sadly is never gonna get bigger than it is for the kids currently. Because the kids now have the competition of internet , video games, manga and other fun things and they aren't gonna come flying in if ya market every comic at PG.


    True. It just feels like every mainstream comic hero is going through all the same changes and difficult moral dilemas. Sometimes, it's just good writing to see heros be good heros and good people in the face of the adversity. Making them seem human and prone to error, may be more relatable, and makes for some great stories. It's just too much use of this has me tired of seeing it with every character. Too much Watchmen influence. (i love Watchmen, but the device is just being over used)
    Which is partly true. But Marvel themselves set the template for their universe by making the heroes face real adversity and problems. The heroes like Spider-Man would sometimes fail (Death of Gwen Stacy) and overcome the adversity at the end.

    A lot of writers fail at this one its true. They can't do a good job at making the hero really be challenged and make him face human adversity. And some copy Watchmen way too much and fail. I agree there. But its not like Alan Moore is the 1st to make heroes question themselves and all.

    I don't too much care for the wrestling analogy. I think the demographics are just too different. There is a lot of wit and thought that has to go into a lot of comic stories. At the end of the day, wrestling is all about action. Storylines in wrestling are tacked on at best. Comics more often than not require you to think, and wrestling, really doesn't.
    Which really basically is wrong. The anology works because essentially these characters are doing battle ala superheroes. They take part in storylines meant to get viewers. Some storylines like Austin's turned him from a bad guy into the biggest star of the 1990's and saved the WWF.

    You also have many comic book fans writing the product like Brian Gerwitz the Raw head writer. He is a big fan of the industry. You have wrestlers like Greg Helms who take a gimmick as a costumed hero and make it work. Hurricane as Helms gimmick was based on his love of Green Lantern.

    Pro Wrestler Scott Levy (Raven) actually wrote for Marvel comics . Arune Sigh a CBR posters who works for Marvel has done interviews with WWE and TNA stars who collect comics on the Marvel website.

    Hell the very company that owns DC (Time Warner) owned World Championship Wrestling in the 1990's as that war waged there.

    You are right in peoples taste in heros. It seems that people like their heros to be imperfect, and wrestling does illustrate that well.
    People want someone who isn't perfect. That has flaws and has to overcome things. A hero like say Batman isn't perfect. Its been shown his own insistance on being a loner cost him and he drove people away. Now he realizes he needs his friends .

    Randy Orton as a name isn't a perfect hero. But due to the fact he's not perfect and has a very cold demeaner , fans love that. He now takes on the bad guys and they want this Punisher , anti-hero to take down the bad ones.


    I don't know if it's that people see thru it, or they just relate easier. The era has changed, and not just comics. People like to see grey versus black and white. I feel that with some heros, they just need to be black and white. They just need to be able to embody all that is good and just, and inspite of all the bad things around them, prove you can make the right choice and stand for what's right. We just don't see as many heros like that anymore. I think Spidey was the best example of this, yes he made the one big mistake, (as he views it) but it made Spidey a hero that stood for something, and was near-incoruptable. He still had his struggles, but they were in his day to day life, not as Spidey. I feel Peter in particular has sullied the Spiderman book with his out of character selfish and terrible descision making, that it has lost some of it's luster.

    I digress. Comics just aren't marketed to kids, and above is an example that most younger kids wouldn't understand why Spiderman did something bad. When a kid, or someone knows someone like Deadpool is crazy, and an anti-hero, it is easier to accept and explain that a character like this is a loose canon, or prone to making bad decsions, and some good ones. There is a place for every type of character, it just seems to me, that every character is moving towards the middle.

    Some heroes realize when they make a mistake like a Batman with Brother Eye in Infinite Crisis. Or a Tony Stark when he took over Shield and supported the Superhero Legislative Act. They know they have messed up and its about doing right.

    As long as they reconize where things went wrong and fix things...it will be ok.
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  3. #33
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    when it comes to kids most kids arent interested in comics. same with most people. comics used to be bought in the millions decades ago but then there were few entertainment choices back then too. these days people have lots more choices for their entertainment and kids are more interested in computer games than comics.

    when it comes to myself often i dont buy alot of the product that is out there because these days you dont need to - you can look at previews online or sample the issue in its entirety online and prices are a put off too - i mean most comics are USD $2.99 but if you buy those same titles overseas it can easily translate to $6 - $8 and thats a lot of money to pay for just one comic, especially when its an ongoing monthly.

    i give away alot of comics to charity and often when i hear who is buying them its mostly adults, men primarily in their 30s - 60s with occasionally a woman buying them either for herself or daughter or son, and less occasionally a kid comes in and buys them - its always my hope that more kids will buy them as a result of seeing the range on offer or it will somehow ignite their imagination to pick up a few titles they see on the racks, but its mostly an adult thing.

  4. #34

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    Comics do face way more competition than they ever have, very true, and comics as an entertainment form, have their hands in tons of other media. TV, internet, video games, and such. There is exposure to other competing media, and where comic manufacturers are missing a huge opportunity by not cross marketing.

    Like others have said, every comic movie, tv show, video game, should all point fans back to comics, and they don't. Fail.

    If they did this, they wouldn't have to change much of anything to get kids into comics, and not just comic stories.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACS View Post
    You see, it's that kind of thinking which is hurting the industry. "Oh, it's hopeless. Let's just settle for less." And what happens when the annually shrinking audience of buyers just dies out? Should DC and Marvel give up on the format entirely?

    Honestly...
    I apologise to being a little late in replying.

    I never said "settle for less" I sad the mainstream is not interested in comics, which it isnt, and then gave more reasons why the initial solution was doomed to failure (too cheap, supermarkets wouldnt want them anyway).

    It doesnt hurt the industry to say "this idea wont work, lets not do it", what hurts the industry is when people within it continually try ideas that wont work. forget trying to lure the mythical "mainstream" audience into comic shops and to get them to buy your product, they are not interested.

    Instead, focus on providing comics that your readers are interested in, set them at a price that will get people buying more and provide good, enjoyable stories. Comics have to accept they are a niche medium, and the longer they try and chase mainstream legitamancy, the longer they will hurt because they are ignoring their actual custome base.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryuluddy View Post
    They aren't, and as we've all suggested, the comic market isn't aimed at younger readers. If it were aimed at kids, there would be an uproar. Comics and TV differ a lot. Sadly, most people view TV as a necessity, and parents have largely just accepted what goes on TV, as a necessary evil. Comics are considered a luxury item, and if parents would be allowing and choosing to spend money on comics, they would be less tolerant of questionable material.
    They aren't tolerant of it at all, and if they're any kind of GOOD parent, they're exercising proper control over their kid's media consumption and keeping the trash away from them.

    Also, it should be noted that not all ADULTS enjoy/look for "adult content" in their comics stories. I was in a conversation with 4 other people (3 other customers and the store guy), all my age range (late 30s-early 40s) at my LCS and the subject came around to the general state of comics.

    To a man, we all agreed that "adult" content was not a sales plus, that it was gratuitous and sleazy. One of the group, a teacher with kids, was if possible even more upset than I was, saying "I'd like to get my kid's into comics, including my students, but I have to be super careful and pre-read everything for bad content first, and I just don't have the time."

    None of us were interested in the "kiddie" books that keep being touted either. We don't want watered down, dumbed down stories aimed deliberately at 10 year olds. We want mature (not adult) stories that don't insult either our intelligence OR our sensibilities.

    I agree. It does open up the potential of getting readers from an otherwise untapped demographic. And truthfully, comics don't need to be as gritty as they have been. I mean, i can do without Spiderman/Peter having a druken hook-up.
    Or Luke Cage buggering his gf, or Cannibal Blob and Cannibal Hulk, or Hank Pym appearing to give Jocasta "the business" while he was repairing her (one I just had the misfortune to discover in a trade I checked out from the library [Might Avengers: Earth's Mightiest]

    I just don't like that all heros in books now are being cast in a light that makes them seem, all-too-human, and mistake prone.
    I submit it's gone well beyond that, witness Tony Stark in CW. The complete miswriting of Cap in the same storyline, etc.

    Don't get me wrong i like seeing characters with moral dilemas of being a super-hero, it's just being overplayed, every character is having to wrestle with this.
    I'll give you an example of good, mature writing that doesn't descend into the cesspool of "adult" material: Thunderstrike #1. Written in the classic Old School all-ages style, handling characters with real problems and issues in a mature manner that doesn't resort to the visual or story equivilant of "potty humor" to make it's mark.

    And those books do okay, in some cases they've done really well. If you open the market up, keeping some titles more mature themed, you can tame some of the other titles down a bit, and get more readers interested. I can't imagine too many fans are going to walk away from X-men because the artist and writers cut out all of the ridiculous sexual innuendo between Scott and Emma
    And a lot of those who HAVE walked away because of the mess just might come back. I know several comics fans who would dearly love to read Marvel again, but refuse to as long as the books remain in the degraded state that most have fallen to.


    It just feels like every mainstream comic hero is going through all the same changes and difficult moral dilemas. Sometimes, it's just good writing to see heros be good heros and good people in the face of the adversity.
    Reality is nasty enough right now. People are looking for ideals and idealists to be inspired by and aspire to be.

    Making them seem human and prone to error, may be more relatable, and makes for some great stories. It's just too much use of this has me tired of seeing it with every character. Too much Watchmen influence. (i love Watchmen, but the device is just being over used)
    Watchmen is to me the exemplar of everything that has become wrong about comics. I can't stand Watchmen, not even the watered down version in the movie. I literally turned it off when it got to the "Night Owl needs his costume to get it on" bullsh*t.

    I don't know if it's that people see thru it, or they just relate easier. The era has changed, and not just comics. People like to see grey versus black and white. I feel that with some heros, they just need to be black and white. They just need to be able to embody all that is good and just, and in spite of all the bad things around them, prove you can make the right choice and stand for what's right. We just don't see as many heros like that anymore. I think Spidey was the best example of this, yes he made the one big mistake, (as he views it) but it made Spidey a hero that stood for something, and was near-incoruptable. He still had his struggles, but they were in his day to day life, not as Spidey. I feel Peter in particular has sullied the Spiderman book with his out of character selfish and terrible descision making, that it has lost some of it's luster.
    I could not agree more.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNM View Post
    I apologise to being a little late in replying.

    I never said "settle for less" I sad the mainstream is not interested in comics, which it isnt,
    The huge box office of comics based movies says you're wrong.

    and then gave more reasons why the initial solution was doomed to failure (too cheap, supermarkets wouldnt want them anyway).
    They did for decades up until Marvel frakked the newstand market with their Diamond monopoly bid in the 90s.

    It doesnt hurt the industry to say "this idea wont work, lets not do it", what hurts the industry is when people within it continually try ideas that wont work. forget trying to lure the mythical "mainstream" audience into comic shops and to get them to buy your product, they are not interested.
    Again reference the huge box office for comics based movies and the continuing audience for similar material on TV.

    Comics have to accept they are a niche medium, and the longer they try and chase mainstream legitamancy, the longer they will hurt because they are ignoring their actual customer base.
    They sold much much better appealing to an all-ages audience than they are now with your "focused" approach.

  8. #38
    14 Time Rita's Champion SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    They aren't tolerant of it at all, and if they're any kind of GOOD parent, they're exercising proper control over their kid's media consumption and keeping the trash away from them.
    Of course what is "trash" to you may not to your kids. Because kids will find a way to sneak around parents. Their friends will be there for them to watch. As an example a buddy of mine was forbidden from watching really bad R Rated movies . So all he'd do is come over and watch with me...and we'd never tell.

    His parents were like...gotta keep him from watching that trash. But as kids do they found a way around.

    Also, it should be noted that not all ADULTS enjoy/look for "adult content" in their comics stories. I was in a conversation with 4 other people (3 other customers and the store guy), all my age range (late 30s-early 40s) at my LCS and the subject came around to the general state of comics.

    To a man, we all agreed that "adult" content was not a sales plus, that it was gratuitous and sleazy. One of the group, a teacher with kids, was if possible even more upset than I was, saying "I'd like to get my kid's into comics, including my students, but I have to be super careful and pre-read everything for bad content first, and I just don't have the time."
    What range is the students he's teaching ? How adult and sleazy was these comics to , Protect The Children ?

    None of us were interested in the "kiddie" books that keep being touted either. We don't want watered down, dumbed down stories aimed deliberately at 10 year olds. We want mature (not adult) stories that don't insult either our intelligence OR our sensibilities.
    Well thats gonna be hard. I mean how do we know what adult storylines are acceptable and which aren't. Is Blackest Night acceptable while , Cry for Justice isn't ?

    Or Luke Cage buggering his gf, or Cannibal Blob and Cannibal Hulk, or Hank Pym appearing to give Jocasta "the business" while he was repairing her (one I just had the misfortune to discover in a trade I checked out from the library [Might Avengers: Earth's Mightiest]
    Which is true...if it offends you I'm sorry. But ask some teenagers if they are offended of Marvel Zombies (which sold a shitload) or Blackest Night. How many teenagers would be A-Ok with it ? How many are ok with Luke Cage getting it on with now wife ?

    Its about the fact that each generation matures faster. The current generation due to cable TV standerds could shock you.

    I submit it's gone well beyond that, witness Tony Stark in CW. The complete miswriting of Cap in the same storyline, etc.
    And recently Tony apologized and admitted he did wrong in CW. That when Siege happened he admitted he did so many things wrong and told Rodgers he shouldn't be on the Avengers. But Rodgers knows Tony only wanted to do the right thing , but approached it wrong and it led to Norman Osborn in charge.

    I'll give you an example of good, mature writing that doesn't descend into the cesspool of "adult" material: Thunderstrike #1. Written in the classic Old School all-ages style, handling characters with real problems and issues in a mature manner that doesn't resort to the visual or story equivilant of "potty humor" to make it's mark.
    And I can give you Booster Gold. Nothing against Thunderstrike #1 , but I found it the less boring part of a Marvels previews. That while not the worst part , it really had nothing that screamed...buy me. And I have a few of the 90's Thunderstrike.

    But see thats the thing....ask many kids or teens to pick up Thunderstrike. Would they feel the same way you do ? Or do they feel different ? Because at the end the tastes you have isn't gonna fit everyone. While you think its the best new book and has an all ages style...they may not like it and vice versa.

    And a lot of those who HAVE walked away because of the mess just might come back. I know several comics fans who would dearly love to read Marvel again, but refuse to as long as the books remain in the degraded state that most have fallen to.
    Then recommend DC , IDW , Image , Dynamite and others. Marvel isn't the only company publishing comics.


    Reality is nasty enough right now. People are looking for ideals and idealists to be inspired by and aspire to be.
    Spider-Man was the every man hero. He faced a hard reality of making bills and surviving with villains mixed in. Sure comics are an escapist medium. But many will tell you , they echoed the reality of real life at times too.

    Watchmen is to me the exemplar of everything that has become wrong about comics. I can't stand Watchmen, not even the watered down version in the movie. I literally turned it off when it got to the "Night Owl needs his costume to get it on" bullsh*t.
    I disagree....Watchmen to me is a classic and is Moore at his best. He essentially takes the feelings of the anti nuke side and show what happens if heroes existed and were involved in Vietnam and the Cold War. How it leads to more and more tension.

    And with that one takes advantage to create a lasting peace and end the Cold War.

    Is it pretty ? No...is it a heroic tale of superheroes...no. Because its basically how the ends to some justify the means.
    "Heads up-- If Havok's position in UA #5 really upset you, it's time to drown yourself hobo piss. Seriously, do it. It's the only solution." - Rick Remender

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Of course what is "trash" to you may not to your kids. Because kids will find a way to sneak around parents. Their friends will be there for them to watch. As an example a buddy of mine was forbidden from watching really bad R Rated movies . So all he'd do is come over and watch with me...and we'd never tell.

    His parents were like...gotta keep him from watching that trash. But as kids do they found a way around.
    I'm guessing you're not a parent? Everything changes when you are. While you are right some kids, can handle and understand what's going on, some can't. It should be up the the parents to determine and discuss those things with their children. When my kids get older, i will absolutely read every comic prior to my kids reading them, just to filter the content. If i do allow my kids to read questionable material, i will discuss it with them, prior to, and after.

    Crap like other kids parents, not respecting other parents rules, bugs the crap out of me. I want parents who respect my rules with my kids, and I'll respect your rules for your kids. What this really does, is undermine authority and show your kids, that it's okay not to listen to someone elses rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Well thats gonna be hard. I mean how do we know what adult storylines are acceptable and which aren't. Is Blackest Night acceptable while , Cry for Justice isn't ?
    That is tough. Again, you can tell a lot of those stories by scaling some of the elements back. Sex and violence, shouldn't be the selling point of a book. Very few stories require sex and violence, and even fewer actually gain something with those elements.

    I actually believe that comics will shift back to being more kid friendly. Comics are targeted at the mid-20's-40's right now. The comic market got traction in the 80's and 90's with kids and teens, and it has changed and evolved as that group of fans has aged. Now, with more of the target audience likely to start having kids and families, comics should be smart enought to know that comics are getting into households, and not just to single folks. These are stories that can be shared, and for fans who enjoy them, they would really like to be able to share them.


    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Its about the fact that each generation matures faster. The current generation due to cable TV standerds could shock you.
    But we shouldn't do nothing. We shouldn't just say, "oh well." Our children don't stay innocent as long as they once did, and that's a shame. We need to do what we can to protect and keep kids from being exposed and desensitized. Kids grow up too fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    I disagree....Watchmen to me is a classic and is Moore at his best. He essentially takes the feelings of the anti nuke side and show what happens if heroes existed and were involved in Vietnam and the Cold War. How it leads to more and more tension.

    And with that one takes advantage to create a lasting peace and end the Cold War.

    Is it pretty ? No...is it a heroic tale of superheroes...no. Because its basically how the ends to some justify the means.
    I would agree that Watchmen is a classic. I would also agree it's not a super-hero book. Watchmen is a social commentary using comic books and super-heros to tell that story. The problem is other books are trying to be gritty and real, when first and foremost they are super hero books. Watchmen was great, not every book should be Watchmen. That book was as much a super hero book as Spiderman is a manual for building a computer. Watchmen did great things, and was groundbreaking, but it isn't good for every comic, and especially not good for comics about heros.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryuluddy View Post
    I'm guessing you're not a parent? Everything changes when you are. While you are right some kids, can handle and understand what's going on, some can't. It should be up the the parents to determine and discuss those things with their children. When my kids get older, i will absolutely read every comic prior to my kids reading them, just to filter the content. If i do allow my kids to read questionable material, i will discuss it with them, prior to, and after.
    Which is your right as a parent honestly. Just don't be shocked if kids won't listen and sneak around the rules. I did it , my friends did it. Growing up we got around our parents rules. I'm sure this generation of children won't be any different.

    Crap like other kids parents, not respecting other parents rules, bugs the crap out of me. I want parents who respect my rules with my kids, and I'll respect your rules for your kids. What this really does, is undermine authority and show your kids, that it's okay not to listen to someone elses rules.
    To be honest unless you tell parents or have the children do this.....they won't know. My friend made sure never to tell mine about his rules on bad movies. He'd come over and watch Freddy Kruegar and knew my parents would never really know what he had to watch.


    That is tough. Again, you can tell a lot of those stories by scaling some of the elements back. Sex and violence, shouldn't be the selling point of a book. Very few stories require sex and violence, and even fewer actually gain something with those elements.

    I actually believe that comics will shift back to being more kid friendly. Comics are targeted at the mid-20's-40's right now. The comic market got traction in the 80's and 90's with kids and teens, and it has changed and evolved as that group of fans has aged. Now, with more of the target audience likely to start having kids and families, comics should be smart enought to know that comics are getting into households, and not just to single folks. These are stories that can be shared, and for fans who enjoy them, they would really like to be able to share them.
    Actually the audiance that read comics in the 1970's has aged and grown . Its said thats the audiance that seems ok with the older adult storylines and change. Look at the current books and themes like ASM back to where Peter was a swinging single or the DC Silver age kick which has a lot of the 1970's era heroes back.

    But we shouldn't do nothing. We shouldn't just say, "oh well." Our children don't stay innocent as long as they once did, and that's a shame. We need to do what we can to protect and keep kids from being exposed and desensitized. Kids grow up too fast.
    Which is the job of the parent and not the media. Its not DC's fault if what they market and sell the most is too adults. Because they wanna make money. It falls on the parents. Of course the parents can't be everywhere with the kids...at a point if they wanna watch or read something...they will. You won't find out.


    I would agree that Watchmen is a classic. I would also agree it's not a super-hero book. Watchmen is a social commentary using comic books and super-heros to tell that story. The problem is other books are trying to be gritty and real, when first and foremost they are super hero books. Watchmen was great, not every book should be Watchmen. That book was as much a super hero book as Spiderman is a manual for building a computer. Watchmen did great things, and was groundbreaking, but it isn't good for every comic, and especially not good for comics about heros.
    Spider-Man at his heart was a more real take on a every-man hero. One who struggled to make rent , to date and to manage as a hero. Also juggling school and a job as well. Its all about how Peter Parker handled real life problems.

    Did things get gritty at times...yes they did. Was some good...yes. Was some bad ...yes. In all its the strength of the writer that matters.
    "Heads up-- If Havok's position in UA #5 really upset you, it's time to drown yourself hobo piss. Seriously, do it. It's the only solution." - Rick Remender

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Of course what is "trash" to you may not to your kids. Because kids will find a way to sneak around parents. Their friends will be there for them to watch. As an example a buddy of mine was forbidden from watching really bad R Rated movies . So all he'd do is come over and watch with me...and we'd never tell.

    His parents were like...gotta keep him from watching that trash. But as kids do they found a way around.
    Then his parents and your parents weren't doing their jobs properly.

    That's why you have to cut this crap off at the source. If the film boards did their jobs and started "X" -ing these nasty pieces of trash, they wouldn't be on TV, at the movies, and you'd only be able to find them in (heavily regulated) "adult materials" stores.

    I don't have a problem with that.

    What range is the students he's teaching ? How adult and sleazy was these comics to , Protect The Children ?
    Not certain. As for the content, he mentioned some of the things I've also referred to (Cage/Jones, the cannibal characters, anti-heroic "heroes", etc).

    Well thats gonna be hard. I mean how do we know what adult storylines are acceptable and which aren't. Is Blackest Night acceptable while , Cry for Justice isn't ?
    Remember a little thing called the Comics Code? It worked for decades to ensure all-ages readability for comics. Most writers were perfectly happy to write to it's standards, not needing the crutches of "shock" or appeals to prurient interests to tell interesting, and yes, mature comics stories.


    Which is true...if it offends you I'm sorry. But ask some teenagers if they are offended of Marvel Zombies (which sold a shitload) or Blackest Night. How many teenagers would be A-Ok with it ? How many are ok with Luke Cage getting it on with now wife ?
    They're probably ok with binge drinking, drugs and illicit sexual activity too...that doesn't mean responsible adults permit, or worse, enable them to indulge in them.
    Its about the fact that each generation matures faster. The current generation due to cable TV standerds could shock you.
    It frequently does. I am appalled at the state of our culture, thanks to ultra violent, gratuitiously sexual, and anti-social "mass media". Comics USED to be something different, something more wholesome and clean.

    Now they're just more filth by and large, at least at Marvel. DC is heading that way though with recent atrocities like the Arsenal drug use issue.
    And recently Tony apologized and admitted he did wrong in CW. That when Siege happened he admitted he did so many things wrong and told Rodgers he shouldn't be on the Avengers. But Rodgers knows Tony only wanted to do the right thing , but approached it wrong and it led to Norman Osborn in charge.
    Tony also said that he'd do the exact same thing in the same circumstances if it ever came up again, so much for being "sorry". And "sorry" isn't enough when you illegally and immorally clone a friend, then turn said clone into a mind-controlled terminator and use it to KILL other friends.

    That is not redeemable. Period.

    And to just have said cloned friend just shrug it off (as eventually happened) is just insult on top of injury.

    But see thats the thing....ask many kids or teens to pick up Thunderstrike. Would they feel the same way you do ? Or do they feel different ? Because at the end the tastes you have isn't gonna fit everyone. While you think its the best new book and has an all ages style...they may not like it and vice versa.
    Maybe not every kid will...unfortunately I think the moral and social development of a generation at least has been pretty well ruined, based on the things they find acceptable.

    But there are still the kids coming up, who haven't been corrupted, whose parent's ARE doing their jobs with, who need media that is accessable to them. And those kids are where any market expansion for comics is going to have to come from.

    Then recommend DC , IDW , Image , Dynamite and others. Marvel isn't the only company publishing comics.
    DC is better than Marvel, but is starting to slip badly. IDW can be pretty bad. Image is gone, and frankly (and I speak as an older Image fan) they had some problematic stuff as well. Dynamite and the other lesser houses are so insignificant in appeal as to be irrelevant in terms of this discussion anyways.

    On top of that, saying "go read something else" is the same as saying "give up". The question is how to increase MARVEL's sales, not DCs, IDWs, etc.


    Spider-Man was the every man hero. He faced a hard reality of making bills and surviving with villains mixed in. Sure comics are an escapist medium. But many will tell you , they echoed the reality of real life at times too.
    yes, because in real life, heroes make pacts with Satan all the time...*rolls eyes*

    I disagree....Watchmen to me is a classic and is Moore at his best. He essentially takes the feelings of the anti nuke side and show what happens if heroes existed and were involved in Vietnam and the Cold War. How it leads to more and more tension.

    And with that one takes advantage to create a lasting peace and end the Cold War.

    Is it pretty ? No...is it a heroic tale of superheroes...no. Because its basically how the ends to some justify the means.
    none of which makes it suitable for an all-ages audience nor does it even appeal to large numbers of adults. I know many many adults who are repulsed by Watchmen and it's ilk.

  12. #42
    Eat your tomatoes! Alex Scott's Avatar
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    DC is better than Marvel, but is starting to slip badly. IDW can be pretty bad. Image is gone, and frankly (and I speak as an older Image fan) they had some problematic stuff as well. Dynamite and the other lesser houses are so insignificant in appeal as to be irrelevant in terms of this discussion anyways.

    On top of that, saying "go read something else" is the same as saying "give up". The question is how to increase MARVEL's sales, not DCs, IDWs, etc.
    Whenever I recommend comics, Marvel's not even anywhere close to the top of the list. I'd recommend things like manga, or webcomics, or indies, since I think the people I know are more likely to find things they'd like, and they tend to be far, far, far more accessible than Marvel and DC. Not to mention, they don't ignore girls and women the way Marvel and DC do. I especially like telling people about Yotsuba&!, Gunnerkrigg Court, Scott Pilgrim, and Sandman.

    Speaking of girls, where are they in this discussion? You only seem to be referring to teenage boys, as if they represent a general audience. What about comics outside the Direct Market? Scholastic seems to be doing fine, and Dynamite seems to have more significance. Manga's had some hiccups, but the only reason it became as big as it has was because of kids and teens, especially girls. What do Marvel and DC have to offer someone who reads Naruto or Fruits Basket and reads Anime News Network? And let's not even go into the hit counts for scanlation sites and webcomics.

    Why the generalization about what "kids" like, when Nickelodeon and Nintendo are still thriving? Why just focus on one or two genres? Superheroes are not one-size-fits-all. Why not strive to emulate YA fiction, and put out a wide range of genres and styles so that, while every book may not appeal to everybody, they appeal to enough. What do Marvel and DC have for people who read Judy Blume, or Cornelia Funke, or, heck, C.S. Lewis? What do they have for sports fans? For young girls trying to discover themselves?

    Why not try to meet people where they are?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Scott View Post
    Whenever I recommend comics, Marvel's not even anywhere close to the top of the list. I'd recommend things like manga, or webcomics, or indies, since I think the people I know are more likely to find things they'd like, and they tend to be far, far, far more accessible than Marvel and DC. Not to mention, they don't ignore girls and women the way Marvel and DC do. I especially like telling people about Yotsuba&!, Gunnerkrigg Court, Scott Pilgrim, and Sandman.
    We're not really talking about manga, or anime or any of that...the question to hand is how to increase comic book sales in the traditional comics forum (and that means Marvel/DC).

    Speaking of girls, where are they in this discussion? You only seem to be referring to teenage boys, as if they represent a general audience. What about comics outside the Direct Market? Scholastic seems to be doing fine, and Dynamite seems to have more significance. Manga's had some hiccups, but the only reason it became as big as it has was because of kids and teens, especially girls. What do Marvel and DC have to offer someone who reads Naruto or Fruits Basket and reads Anime News Network? And let's not even go into the hit counts for scanlation sites and webcomics.
    I'm all for having Marvel reach out to female readers. They have a good slate of female characters (assuming that female readers gravitate to girl characters, which I don't agree with). Firestar, Spider-Girl (the real one), etc are excellent characters who deserve to be utilized more, but they aren't because Marvel's business plan is too narrowly focused on the big franchises, and spiking next month's sales rather than fanbase development.

    Why the generalization about what "kids" like, when Nickelodeon and Nintendo are still thriving? Why just focus on one or two genres? Superheroes are not one-size-fits-all. Why not strive to emulate YA fiction, and put out a wide range of genres and styles so that, while every book may not appeal to everybody, they appeal to enough. What do Marvel and DC have for people who read Judy Blume, or Cornelia Funke, or, heck, C.S. Lewis? What do they have for sports fans? For young girls trying to discover themselves?

    Why not try to meet people where they are?
    Those markets are already well served. We are talking about comics, not YA lit in general.

  14. #44
    14 Time Rita's Champion SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    Then his parents and your parents weren't doing their jobs properly.
    His parents weren't around him 24/7 non-stop. And you won't be either. Your kids will do what any of us have done though. We all have watched or did something we wasn't supposed to. Our parents may have been the strict but how many of us sneaked by.

    That's why you have to cut this crap off at the source. If the film boards did their jobs and started "X" -ing these nasty pieces of trash, they wouldn't be on TV, at the movies, and you'd only be able to find them in (heavily regulated) "adult materials" stores.

    I don't have a problem with that.
    Which is fine...no one has said that as a parent you can't. Thats your right to watch and moniter what your child finds. But remember we were all children once.


    Not certain. As for the content, he mentioned some of the things I've also referred to (Cage/Jones, the cannibal characters, anti-heroic "heroes", etc).
    Cage and Jones are married with a kid. Marvel Zombies is your basically horror style comics which has been around 30+ years in a lot of ways. As far as storylines like Iron Man turning in CW...well he's human as its shown. He made a mistake during Civil War and it fits Marvel. Stark once lost his company due to drinking. Being an alcohalic.

    Did it make him any less heroic ? No...because he overcame that. He regretted his mistakes and moved forward.

    Remember a little thing called the Comics Code? It worked for decades to ensure all-ages readability for comics. Most writers were perfectly happy to write to it's standards, not needing the crutches of "shock" or appeals to prurient interests to tell interesting, and yes, mature comics stories.
    And remember it was basically spurned by idiots who blamed juvenile crime and bullshit on comics ? Werthum killed the horror comics publisher EC by this bullshit. The code was a piece of shit and people like that looked for reasons to blame media for the fact that crime was high.

    Not many respected the code. Marvel in the 1970's for one story of Harry Osborn on drugs would not use it. DC when they made Speedy a junkie dropped it. The comics code thankfully is gone and will never impact comics again since it really was an out dated foolish thing.


    They're probably ok with binge drinking, drugs and illicit sexual activity too...that doesn't mean responsible adults permit, or worse, enable them to indulge in them.
    Which isn't really whats been posted. Just because people read about these things , doesn't mean they will do it. Its up to you to say ...this is make believe. If character A is sleeping with his gf before marriage your kids will have to know its make believe. We all have learned comics ala TV is an imaginary medium.

    It frequently does. I am appalled at the state of our culture, thanks to ultra violent, gratuitiously sexual, and anti-social "mass media". Comics USED to be something different, something more wholesome and clean.

    Now they're just more filth by and large, at least at Marvel. DC is heading that way though with recent atrocities like the Arsenal drug use issue.
    Which is your right to be appalled. Not everyone enjoys the voilent comics and deaths . And many will say this. But its not like this is a new thing...the past 30-40 years have had characters die and things change. Good or bad.

    Tony also said that he'd do the exact same thing in the same circumstances if it ever came up again, so much for being "sorry". And "sorry" isn't enough when you illegally and immorally clone a friend, then turn said clone into a mind-controlled terminator and use it to KILL other friends.

    That is not redeemable. Period.
    Which again look above...he did a wrong and admitted it. And he wanted Thor back on his side to enforce the law he was as head of SHIELD to enforce. Tony did wrong there and admitted it.

    And to just have said cloned friend just shrug it off (as eventually happened) is just insult on top of injury.
    Well this is after Thor beat the shit outta him and told him to go back to his leaders and that Asgard didn't answer to them. Thor in that didn't kill him due to the fact Tony fought on his side once...but he beat him up and told him to walk.

    Maybe not every kid will...unfortunately I think the moral and social development of a generation at least has been pretty well ruined, based on the things they find acceptable.

    But there are still the kids coming up, who haven't been corrupted, whose parent's ARE doing their jobs with, who need media that is accessable to them. And those kids are where any market expansion for comics is going to have to come from.
    Thats if they want to be told what comics to read and that they should follow and all. I mean can't you see the slippery slope here. Your basically condemning a generation who read what they want and not care. If the next generation wanna read what they want ...all power to em. If its as voilent as they want to...as long as they read...let em. If its PG...cool.


    DC is better than Marvel, but is starting to slip badly. IDW can be pretty bad. Image is gone, and frankly (and I speak as an older Image fan) they had some problematic stuff as well. Dynamite and the other lesser houses are so insignificant in appeal as to be irrelevant in terms of this discussion anyways.
    IDW publishes Doctor Who...an All Ages title. Image does some graphic things like Walking Dead and Invincible. And those things ya deem irrelevant is just sad...since Boom publishes a Kids line of comics that you champion here.

    Maybe the fact is ...if you expect DC and Marvel to write for children ya maybe in for a long wait beyond the Adventures and Johnny DC stuff. While stuff like Boom will do it and be there for it.


    On top of that, saying "go read something else" is the same as saying "give up". The question is how to increase MARVEL's sales, not DCs, IDWs, etc.
    Why not go read something else and increase sales for companies that need it ? Because at last check...Marvel is owning 30/40% of the current market. They need increased sales like a drunk man needs alcohal. Support Boom if you want childrens comics. They publish a wide line of them.


    yes, because in real life, heroes make pacts with Satan all the time...*rolls eyes*
    Which is more a problem with the current direction and less a problem with Spider-Man who again faced real life problems. Marvel's heroes were the more grounded to real life characters when they launched in the 1960's.


    none of which makes it suitable for an all-ages audience nor does it even appeal to large numbers of adults. I know many many adults who are repulsed by Watchmen and it's ilk.
    Which is fine...be repulsed. But it should be up to the kids of the next generation to read and be pleased or not with it.
    "Heads up-- If Havok's position in UA #5 really upset you, it's time to drown yourself hobo piss. Seriously, do it. It's the only solution." - Rick Remender

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  15. #45
    Part-Time Sith Joe Acro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Personally I feel if comics are ever gonna capture that youth market you have to go where the kids are. Thats put ads on TV (The UK Fables ad shows...it can be done as linked below) to promote what your selling. Marvel is currently selling the Avengers : Earth's Mightest Heroes. With Disney owning the channel , ya call up the Disney exec and say..."Hey we wanna promote the Avengers line...and tell kids about subscription or their LCS in commercials during the show !"
    That's basically what the deal between Marvel and Hasbro was for G.I. Joe.

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