CBR: When Words Collide - Nov 8, 2010

[CBR News]

This week, Timothy tackles five burning questions, including what's the deal with Doctor Hurt? How does "Casanova" fare in color? What are the five most underrated comic book series of all time? All this and more!


Full article here.

[inviskid]

Dammit, it DOES matter where the "Bruce Wayne: The Road Home" one-shots fit in, not because of their quality (which was very spotty), but because it's a DC UNIVERSE and no book should be less important to continuity than another. That's the one thing that is preventing current comic books from being truly awesome: the lack of consistency and coherence. Remember the days when we used to have great writers writing great stories about great characters with gorgeous art AND it all weaved together into a coherent universe? Maybe it's too much to ask for everything, but I think DC is still capable of it as soon as their editors a) step up their coordination (one of the few reasons I'm happy Harras is taking over) and b) grow some balls and make these auteur creators play fair with everyone else.

In answer to the question, presumably (and my faith in DC in this is admittedly low) once The Return of Bruce Wayne wraps up, there's a "downtime" point (seems unlikely given the eclipse's significance) where Bruce is running around evaluating everyone, then he makes it in time to show up and take out Dr. Hurt in B&R 16.

[Thad]

Dammit, it DOES matter where the "Bruce Wayne: The Road Home" one-shots fit in, not because of their quality (which was very spotty), but because it's a DC UNIVERSE and no book should be less important to continuity than another. That's the one thing that is preventing current comic books from being truly awesome: the lack of consistency and coherence.

Bullshit.

The quality of a book matters a hell of a lot more than whether it fits continuity; that should be self-evident. Countdown wasn't bad because it contradicted Final Crisis, it was bad because it was BAD.

Thor: The Mighty Avenger is one of the best books Marvel's putting out right now, and it's not canon at all. And where exactly did X-Statix and the Ellis run on X-Man fit into X-Men continuity? The answer is "who cares?"

Tie-in books usually suck, and the fact that they appear to be slapdash affairs with no coordination with the book they're supposed to tie into is a part of why they suck. But a by-the-numbers tie-in that remembers what state Superman's supposed to be in this month is not actually better than All-Star Superman, canon or no.

[inviskid]

If you read carefully, I never suggest that continuity is more important than story, story IS more important but we can have both. Prior to ~2000 it's been proven quite clearly that both can be done.

I agree, Thor: The Mighty Avenger is one of the best books out there but it's specifically not in continuity. That works fine for the Ultimate Universe and Earth One and Elseworlds, etc. But we're talking about the mainstream DC Universe. I'd be perfectly happy if Grant started his own non-DC Universe DC Universe, but that's not the case here.

Tie in books do usually suck (though I think you're being a little harsher on them than you need to be). But the solution is not "ignore them and where they fall in continuity". The real solution here is "raise the quality or don't publish them at all", both of which do not negate my point that a little more effort by the editors can fit them in with the main story in a way that makes sense.

One of the biggest lie that gets perpetrated in the comic book continuity these days is that it's one or the other: story or continuity. You can have both.

[the_speedball]

No mention of "Hourman" for best follow up of a Morrisonian concept? I LOVED that series!

(I also loved Dance, but I thought Hourman would at least get a nod.)

[inviskid]

No mention of "Hourman" for best follow up of a Morrisonian concept? I LOVED that series!

Hourman was pretty fun. Tom Peyer doesn't get enough credit for that series. In fact, come to think of it, Tom Peyer doesn't get enough credit for a lot of series. People tend to overlook him and Tom McCraw when it comes to the reboot Legion (all you hear about is DnA). And his work on R.E.B.E.L.S. (the first series) is remarkably dark and sophisticated space opera.

I think Hourman tends to get the short end of the stick due to it's similarities to PAD's Captain Marvel.

[Reptisaurus!]

Remember the days when we used to have great writers writing great stories about great characters with gorgeous art AND it all weaved together into a coherent universe?

Nope.

I can sort of - sort of - see this argument applying to the Roy Thomas-edited Marvel books circa 1972, but even then there was very little attention paid to what fits in exactly where* - but the historical and character continuity was picked over to the best of the EIC's ability.

The Shooter era at Marvel tends to be falsely remembered as the model of internal consistency at Marvel, but there was almost none of the line wide reading order that you're looking for here. Marvel Team-Up had no real relation to Spectacular Spider-Man had no real connection to Amazing Spider-Man, ferinstance. And most of the generally-agreed-upon great runs - yer Claremont X-men, yer Miller Daredevil - were almost completely complete-unto-themselves. (And they virtually HAD to be, to succeed on the newstand.)

DC, of course, has basically always been more of a fiefdom editorial system with everybody doin' there own thing than the Marvel top-down editorial approach which means that line-wide continuity doesn't exist now, has never existed, and it's really quite doubtful that it ever will exist. You can say that internal consistency within, say, the Batman line specifically was better during Denny 'O Neil's tenure as editor, but even then he didn't seem to pay much attention to what anyone else was doing except for some half-assed and quite frankly laughable attempts to explain the (otherwise 10 kinds of awesome) No Man's Land storyline in a world where Green Lantern and Wonder Woman should be able to fix everything on their lunch break. The Superman books might have had little triangle on the corner for a while, but (A) that was, from a historical standpoint, bizarre deviation - 99% of all mainstream, American comics published before, during, and after this run of Superman books didn't pay as much attention to what fits where and (B) there wasn't much attempt made to integrate them, thematically, tonally, or even even-wise with anything else goin' on at DC during the '90s. And we can forget any semblance of historical continuity after the Crisis on the Infinite Earths.

That period of Superman sold through the roof, though. So they got that goin' for them.

Or, if you want inter-title continuity, the current Marvel line is tighter than it's ever been, although I'm thinking historical continuity has fallen by the wayside a bit - Cue Spider-Marriage joke here.

One of the biggest lie that gets perpetrated in the comic book continuity these days is that it's one or the other: story or continuity. You can have both.

Theoretically, sure. Most really great comics - yer Watchmens, yer Mauseses, yer King Cities - require a free-er hand with the world building than you can get with an in continuity universe, but you can certainly have very good-but-probably-not-literary-classics-that-will-be-read-in-a-hundred-years comics in continuity.

Or you COULD, If continuity ever worked particularly well. Which I don't think it ever has, at least not in corporate comics.. (The most effective continuity I've ever read in comics is Jen Van Meter's Hopeless Savages.)

Although, actually, I'd like to see it someday. It would almost certainly take a universe-wide reboot. I dunno if it would make for good comics, but it would be at least interesting.

* According to Gerry Conway from this issue of Back Issue magazine. Which Tim Callahan writes for, sometimes.)

[inviskid]

That's a lot of good points. I'm not saying it was ever or will ever be totally perfect, but the given example IS a small fiefdom of books (the current Batman titles). At least they should be able to work out what's going on with each other.

I'm not making the argument for the return to the "Superman triangle" system and certainly not applying it to an entire company at once. If Marvel Team-Up doesn't make sense with current issues of Amazing or Spectacular or Web, then it fits in where it does, before or after. But it shouldn't become impossible to fit (as I suspect this week's Return of Bruce Wayne will make the The Road Home one-shots). There's no way that's acceptable if you're trying for consistency.

There is a suspension of disbelief element to the No Man's Land thing. But that's more of a plot problem than a continuity problem. During it, Batman was rarely seen out of Gotham in other books and references were made to the state of Gotham. And we did get some half-hearted reasoning as to why the government would put a ban on entering or leaving Gotham to the point where it mined the rivers and shot out planes that tried to fly overhead. Now that may not be a very good story element, but again it's not a continuity problem (this may be a good case of poor story/good continuity... NOT something I'm advocating :) ).

Continuity never was perfect, that's for sure, but it was way better than what we have today at DC. They're not really trying for it anymore, I guess would be my main problem. It's like they've given up on it.

[Mr_Wayne]

"The Road Home" was just a way to sell some ancillary comics. Everyone should know by now that any crossover with a Grant Morrison comic that doesn't have Grant Morrison's name in the credits is actually not much of a crossover at all. Those things are completely skippable. See every non-Morrison related "Final Crisis" or "Batman R.I.P." issues for more examples. Actually, don't bother.

Precisely!

[Seraku]

oh com'n at least half the FC tie-ins were decent, seems more than a little harsh to dump them in with the RIP tie-ins.

[inviskid]

oh com'n at least half the FC tie-ins were decent, seems more than a little harsh to dump them in with the RIP tie-ins.

Actually, I do agree that they were decent quality books (especially Revelations and Submit/Resist). But I think the point was that they were lousy as tie-ins to the main story.

And Legion of Three Worlds was fantastic, but it had nothing to do with Final Crisis :)

[BillR]

Hey-- the ending to New X-Men was great.

[rmansperger]

Bill Willingham's "The Elementals" should be on this list of underrated series, well at least the first year of the series - one of the first "superheroes in the real world" type comics back in 1984/1985.

[rev sully]

Heya Tim,

Your glowing bon mots here peaked my interest...
and also I've read Warren Ellis Dot Com everyday for years now and that guy simply loves Fraction & this title...
then after reading Ryan K. Lindsay's review
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...review&id=3873

I bought my first ever CASANOVA. Jeez...just what I wanted. A Nigh-Perfect Comic. So I have no prior context to judge AVARITA I on...I cannot compare it to a supposed former glory.
I just simply basked in my Wednesday New Release's awesomeness.
"This is my first foray into the twisted Sci-Fi, Time-Travel Ultra-Glam Spy World of Casanova Quinn. This is in fact I believe my first ever book by MARVEL Super-Writer Matt Fraction as well. CASANOVA by Fraction is one of those funnybooks "I've Yet To Get" and has been on that list for a while...the coolest, best comicbook I wasn't reading. Warren Ellis raves about it on his website, other respected reviewers cannot shut up about CASANOVA. So what a great place to start than this weeks brand-new story and issue #1 of Avaritia. Trippy, man...wickid trippy. Great cartoony art. Ultra-Violence, Full-Frontal Nudity, Bad language....aka: My Cup o" Tea. Color me Interested & now Obligated to Fill In Those Puzzle Pieces and hunt down the rest.
It's so good it's gonna need several more reading to fully grok...I mean there is a narrative caption box containing nothing but a series of numbers in a Time Code I've Yet To Figger Out...it's slightly over my head and I Like It! "
http://thechannelocho.blogspot.com/2...64808339558525

Tim, I started reading "Why Casanova Matters" and I had to stop at the beginning due to your Spoiler Warning.
Because yesterday I picked up the LUXURIA TPB.
So next week I'll pick up GULA.
and I'm really interested in hustling down the single, original, pre-recolored floppies.
I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Are you going forward with "Why Casanova Still Matters"?
'Cuz I think it does. This is for me one of those magazines & trades I'll be lending to friends. Heck, this is the kind of story I'd give to a chick I'd like...to impress her with a racy story like I used to do with PREACHER. (c'mon guys, ever use your best dirty funnybook to try & impress a chick? ;P)
My LOL Moment that almost beer shoot from nose last night was when Norman Xeno said, "Girls! Wake Up! Let's all f@#k on piles of blood-stained money!"
As Stan The Man Spake, "'Nuff Said!"

kriya shakti,
Rev Sully
The Hub of the Multiverse

Eric O'Sullivan
Boston, MA USA