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  1. #136
    13 Time Rita's Champion SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaxper View Post
    Just read Batman #703 tonight and am now completely caught up with the title. I mention this for two reasons:

    1. As if in direct response to my previous post, this was a single issue story and it paid homage to a lot of old continuity, not just operating as "an island unto itself."

    2. The old continuity it brought up came directly from this Bronze Age run of Batman I've been reading, particularly the Conway Killer Croc arc. It specifically mentions Joker and Croc working to have the criminal underworld kill Batman, and it references Vicki Vale's break-up with Batman, which also happened in that storyline.

    On the one hand, I found this gratifying. These later Bronze Age stories are where Batman's continuity first really took shape but, occurring right before the first Crisis, that continuity also got discarded only a few short years after it began. These stories NEVER get referenced, even though it was a very impressive run, as a whole.

    On the other hand, there's a real problem here. The Killer Croc/Joker plan from "ten years ago" is being discussed by Dick, Tim, and Damian, three of the four Robins (okay, there was also Stephanie Brown for a few months). Still, Jason's absence seems particularly pronounced in this discussion not just because he's the missing Robin, and not just because Tim walks in in the Red Robin costume that he got from Jason. Instead, these two facts only play up the relatively big problem that Jason's parents died in the very issue being discussed. The biggest, most memorable aspect of that individual issue was that it left an orphaned Jason Todd in Bruce Wayne's care.

    Of course, of all the characters and continuities revamped during the first Crisis, none was changed more heavily than Jason's. The Jason Todd that was killed by the Joker and came back as the Red Hood who is still at large in these comics was an entirely different character, and his parents met very different fates.

    So...now that we're post-post crisis, and everything counts again, how are we supposed to reconcile this? Did writer Fabian Nicienza intentionally reference this old story in order to make us wonder, or is this still a 100% post-crisis Jason Todd, with the original guy still totally obliterated from continuity?

    It would be interesting to see all this old continuity starting to count again. As it stands, I found the references in this issue incredibly gratifying and oddly timed.
    Its basically a little of both. To try and make my points clear...

    1.) The story with Croc and Joker teaming up did happen. That part did and Vale's breakup with Bruce Wayne. Those stayed the same.

    2.) But Croc never killed Jason's parents. Because DC is keeping the post Crisis explanation going that Jason was an orphan from Crime Alley that boosted the Bat-Mobile's tires.


    I really wonder if we will see Nocturna/Jason brought up where she tried to adopt him. Or if that too has been pushed on the "retcon , never happened" deal.
    "Heads up-- If Havok's position in UA #5 really upset you, it's time to drown yourself hobo piss. Seriously, do it. It's the only solution." - Rick Remender

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  2. #137
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Its basically a little of both. To try and make my points clear...

    1.) The story with Croc and Joker teaming up did happen. That part did and Vale's breakup with Bruce Wayne. Those stayed the same.

    2.) But Croc never killed Jason's parents. Because DC is keeping the post Crisis explanation going that Jason was an orphan from Crime Alley that boosted the Bat-Mobile's tires.
    That was how I understood it too, but that moment in the Batcave seemed to almost purposely be hinting that this was no longer the case. Who knows? maybe it was all a coincidence.

    I really wonder if we will see Nocturna/Jason brought up where she tried to adopt him. Or if that too has been pushed on the "retcon , never happened" deal.
    I think it would have to be gone from continuity, as would Jason's brief stint in the Titans, his presence in Millenium and "For the Man Who Has Anything," and any other thing that his pre-Crisis predecessor did, because the two characters have zero in common.

    That being said, I have been wondering why Nocturna has never popped up again post-crisis beyond a few brief cameos.

  3. #138
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Detective Comics #531

    "The Face of the Chimera"
    writer: Doug Moench
    art: Gene Colan and Alfredo Alcala

    Grade: B+

    The conclusion to the Chimera storyline doesn't disappoint, for the most part. Jason grows a bit more of a personality as he's left to wonder how to handle Chimera, believing that he's alone in handling all this. His methodical solution in searching for the Chimera is practical, and his final guess as to the true nature of Chimera is quite brilliant. Granted, it was only a guess that ended up being completely true, but it was still brilliant.

    I really like the final answer to who Chimera was. He was never any of the individual circus members. He was a master of disguise floating amongst them all along, changing faces as often as necessary in order to blend in. Fascinating. I still would have liked to have seen his real face and learned his true identity in the end. Jason is only partly right that it doesn't really matter. There's always that need for a sense of closure, and if he ever comes back again, I'd like to know his true alter ego. It's not like Batman doesn't know his identity now, so it's a bit of a stupid mystery to leave open for us.

    It seems that Moench must have changed his plans for Chimera partway through. When Waldo first showed up at Wayne Manor several issues back (Detective #528), there was a dark undertone to the visit, and Jason wondered out loud why Waldo was wearing his makeup while he was off duty. The answer to those odd clues would appear to be that it was Chimera, but in the next issue, that same Waldo talked to Jason like a friend without any clear agenda in mind, and we saw only last issue that Chimera hadn't considered kidnapping Jason until just then. Oh well. Loose ends.

    Oh, and by the way, why the heck would Chimera make a second attempt to get Jason if he now knows Batman is pursuing him? Just last issue, he was terrified at their first encounter. Why not let a good crime spree be good enough, go back to hiding amongst the carnies, and keep making scores the way he'd been making them all along? Sure, Jason would fetch a large ransom, but Chimera was clearly way out of his league.

    Such confusion aside, my only regret with this issue is that it doesn't leave much for the artists to do. Colan and Alcala teaming up on art is a dream come true, but Moench has all the action take place during the daytime when their best work is in expressive shadows, and his focus is more on tying up the story than it is on tone and drama. The script works fine on its own, but it doesn't really consider the visual aspect. Colan and Alcala still do an amazing job, especially on faces, but they lack the freedom of expression that comes with Moench's moodier scripts.

    The plot summary in one long sentence: Batman wakes up and scares away a bunch of lions that were planning on eating him, Jason decides Chimera isn't Waldo and escapes, Gordan is in a coma from which he may never awaken, Jason begins a systematic check on all members of the circus to see who wasn't there the night before and is therefore Chimera, he figures out what Chimera really is (actually, it's a wild guess), he finds Batman and Chimera (only he's confused which is which), a fight ensues, Chimera is captured, Bruce agrees to take Jason on as a partner, and Vicki Vale begins a plan to go undercover and expose a weapons deal between Russia and Cuba.
    Last edited by shaxper; 12-14-2010 at 08:15 PM.

  4. #139
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Have they jettisoned the Detective back-ups at this point, or are you trying to pretend they aren't there?
    Jim Zimmerman
    Co-moderator, CBR Batman Forum

  5. #140
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    Have they jettisoned the Detective back-ups at this point, or are you trying to pretend they aren't there?
    I commented on this in an entry a while back, but that was ages ago. I absolutely cannot tolerate Joey Cavalieri's writing on Green Arrow, so I'm just skipping it each issue. I gave the feature two chances and was done. Some of the worst crap I've seen in a long time.

  6. #141
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Just for fun, here again are my write-ups for those terrible, terrible Cavalieri stories:

    "High Tech Highwayman!"
    writer: Joey Cavalieri
    art: Trevor Von Eeden

    Grade: F-

    The first Green Arrow backup story, and I couldn't even finish it! I've read A LOT of crap when it comes to backup stories, and I absolutely could not get past page two. Ollie is writing a newspaper article about a computer hacker when the computer hacker crashes his computer, shows up on his screen (in a full and elaborate bad guy costume) and introduces himself while explaining that he "can't have you broadcasting my trade secrets all over Star City!" It's a terrible, terrible plot full of an absurd amount of suspension of disbelief. With a beginning this bad, it was clear the story wasn't going to go anywhere worth reading. I'm sure my summary doesn't do justice to just how awful those two pages were, so you'll just have to trust me.



    "Mob Rule!"
    writer: Joey Cavalieri
    art: Irv Novick

    Grade: D-


    Why, oh why, did I come back for another Cavalieri Green Arrow backup? The issue begins with Ollie breaking up a legal union strike. He tries to be diplomatic, but he fails in the most transparent of ways: "You've all got beefs...and they're all legitimate beefs...but the place to settle them is the conference table...not the streets! Clear?"

    Gotta love it.

    Of course, it turns out that the discontent is all being caused by a new villain called...get this..."Machiaveli," and he's actually dressed like Machiaveli. Along with his assistant, "The Executioner," he plans to turn Star City against itself for his own gains. It's "To be continued," though I won't be back to see how it ends.

  7. #142
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Batman #365

    "Ruins"
    writer: Doug Moench
    art: Don Newton

    Grade: B+/A-

    Another great issue simply because of the freedom it allows to Newton's art. South American jungles and Mayan ruins at night make for fantastic visuals. In that respect, the relatively simplistic story really didn't matter. I was hooked.

    Essentially, all that happens in this issue is that Vicki gets herself trapped in a secret hideout under a Mayan pyramid (even she comments on how far-fetched this seems) and manages to sneak out a note for help, all while a mysterious bad guy with a purple sleeve and glove looks on from off camera. Of course it's the Joker leading Batman into a trap. Still, Moench's writing is good, the plotting is competent, and the art is just awesome.

    A few minor details:

    Harvey Bullock feels bad for hurting Gordan this seriously and apologizes to his coma-ridden body. Impressive!

    Really loved that Bruce thanked his cab driver by name in this issue. That's true class.

    How does Newton pencil such a flawless issue and then screw up so thoroughly on the Joker's appearance in the final panel's big reveal? It's the weirdest looking Joker I've ever seen.
    Last edited by shaxper; 11-24-2010 at 05:35 PM.

  8. #143
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    It's funny. As I was heading to bed tonight, I was thinking to myself what my dream-team would be if I had to pick from all the creators I'd seen in this run of Batman and Detective thus far. The funny thing is, what I came up with is very close to what we're getting in these most recent issues.

    Here's my dream-team for a Batman book, assembled only from creators that I've seen contribute to this run:

    Editor: Len Wein
    Art: Don Newton
    Inks: Alfredo Alcala
    Colors: Adrienne Roy
    Plotting: Gerry Conway
    Writing: Doug Moench

    The absence of Conway's plotting aside, this really is the dream team. What a very cool time to be reading!
    Last edited by shaxper; 11-24-2010 at 05:35 PM.

  9. #144
    Senior Member JKCarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaxper View Post
    Harvey Bullock feels bad for hurting Gordan this seriously and apologizes to his coma-ridden body. Impressive!
    The whole arc of Bullock and his transformation from one-note antagonist to a fully-developed supporting character is some of Moench's best writing. Detective #533 is a key turning point, and one of my favorite issues in the run. I'll be interested in seeing your reaction. (with my luck, you'll end up hating it. )
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  10. #145
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaxper View Post
    What a very cool time to be reading!
    Though my memories of the specifics are dim, the general impressions that I retain is that this was a good time for Batman.
    Jim Zimmerman
    Co-moderator, CBR Batman Forum

  11. #146
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKCarrier View Post
    The whole arc of Bullock and his transformation from one-note antagonist to a fully-developed supporting character is some of Moench's best writing. Detective #533 is a key turning point, and one of my favorite issues in the run. I'll be interested in seeing your reaction. (with my luck, you'll end up hating it. )
    Hahahaha. Better yet...I don't have it! My Batman run is 100% complete, but my Detective run has some gaps beginning with that very issue. I just read #532 and loved it (review coming soon), but I think the next Detective issue I have is #536.

    Oh well :(

    EDIT: Just double checked. I DO have #533. The gap begins with #534. Great news!!
    Last edited by shaxper; 11-21-2010 at 07:11 AM.

  12. #147
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Detective Comics #532

    "Laugh, Killer, Laugh!"
    writer: Doug Moench
    art: Gene Colan and Bob Smith

    Grade: A

    An interesting illustration of my previous post about how this stretch of the Batman run has everything going for it but plotting. This has got to be one of Batman's best run-ins with the Joker ever. The writing is beyond masterful, the relationship between the two characters is developed beautifully, and, from an editorial point of view, Joker's scale model of Joker Land even contains the rock-face sculpture he attempted to carve back in Batman #353. On the other hand, almost nothing happens in this highly decompressed issue.

    Essentially, the Joker ties Batman to a Joker train, ties Vicki to the tracks, and spends the entire issue watching Batman attempt to escape and save Vicki. Fortunately, he does describe a more intricate plot to assassinate a military leader, thus sparking a Guatamalan civil war, and then using the confusion to take over and create a nation-wide Joker Land (I assume this will come into play next issue). There are also two incredibly brief B and C plots in which Harvey Bullock continues to show impressive characterization in apologizing to Gordan in a coma and Alfred meets his estranged daughter, Julia.

    All in all, this was still an immensely enjoyable issue, but it was a bit disappointing to arrive at the end and realize that the entire plot could have been compressed into two pages of storytelling.

    The plot in one sentence: Joker ties Batman to a train and Vicki to the track; Batman breaks free and saves her.

    Also, Batman's solutions to the trap are absurd. Jumping up just in time, grabbing a stalagtite and breaking it off, using it to cut his ropes, and then using a batarang to make the train jump right over Vicki's body at the very last second, seems entirely absurd. Oh well.

    Art-wise, Colan does an incredible job as usual (perhaps a bit better than usual as he draws a storm of scattered skull bits flying over a deranged Joker), but the art finally dropped off at the end. Moench finally uses his writing to set up a rich visual, writing that the Joker's eyes "...alone--trapped at the center of a face locked in perpetual mirth--blaze for a long moment in pure hatred and fury..." and the art conveys none of this. The next panel, in which Joker's laughing mouth extends from his nose to his ribcage, is even more disappointing.

    Since the writing in this issue was absolutely some of the best I've seen in the series yet, I feel compelled to share a few choice quotes:


    "That part of him which is Bruce Wayne stares in horror at Vicki Vale--but in the long, dark times of night, his psyche permits Bruce Wayne no more than a small and fleeting role...And so when he speaks, his voice altered in both tone and pitch, the words are cold, grating, and hard."

    What a great take on Bruce's relationship to Batman. I wonder if Moench is the first to suggest that Bruce alters his speaking voice as Batman.


    Batman: You really ARE mad, Joker. A plan like that could never succeed!

    Joker: Perhaps not, Batman, but at least the sheer lunacy of the attempt peculiarly appeals to my quaint sense of humor.


    Joker in a nutshell.


    Batman: All the bullets in all their guns won't stop me from reaching you...The adrenaline of all the years between us will carry me straight to your throat, Joker...And when the bullets finally bring me down...I'll drag you with me.

    Joker: I do believe you would, Bats.


    Moench does so much to expand upon their deep relationship, here.


    Joker: Murder is hardly something I shy away from, Bats. But I've never really wanted to kill you. If memory serves, I've had the chance several times...I've even passed up the opportunity to unmask you. Where's the fun in that?

    This has always been one of my favorite aspects of the Joker, and I wonder if it began here with Moench.


    Lackie: Wh-What's he doing, boss?
    Joker: He's being the Batman, dolt.


    This was such a key line for me. If anyone here has ever read Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing, what has always impressed me most about it is its awareness of its own genre. Not only does it take traditional comic supporting cast and make them into the romantic leads, but it features a villain who is so cruel and sinister precisely because he realizes that he's a villain in a comedy. The genre's conventions will never allow him to win.

    Joker takes that a step further. He knows the conventions so well that he's actually smart enough to surpass them, but he prefers to play his role well. He wants the Batman to escape, and he watches with mixed expectation, frustration, and admiration as Batman does so, refusing to run away or resort to a Plan B as it happens. After all, Batman's escaping was Plan A all along.

    In a sense, this makes Joker a far more terrifying villain. Usually, we know the villain can't win. In this case, we're depending upon a villain who can win to choose not to win. Considering how unbalanced the Joker is, it seems convincingly possible that, this one time, he may have miscalculated. Most villains are sanely attempting to kill Batman and fail. Joker insanely doesn't want to kill Batman, and he may one day fail at that, too.

    Great issue overall, even without a plot!
    Last edited by shaxper; 12-14-2010 at 06:01 PM.

  13. #148
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Batman #366

    "The Joker is Wild"
    writer: Doug Moench
    art: Don Newton and Alfredo Alcala

    Grade: B

    As uninspired as the title of this story may seem, it's legitimately earned here. Moench begins by backing off on his vision of the Joker a bit, portraying him as a thoroughly unbalanced mind that alternates between playing the villain role and being aware of the role he's playing, even arguing with himself and commenting "Wait a minute! Why am I getting mad?...This is exactly what I wanted--another sterling challenge from old Bats." I liked him a little more even keeled and unsettlingly sane and wise, but Moench goes for an easier answer: a villain who can see the predictability in his universe but can't even find predictability within himself.

    This Joker is a lot more fallible; a lot less threatening. All it takes is Batman to gain an unexpected upper hand once for Joker to decide that he doesn't want to play the game anymore and to start panicking. He's certainly not the same villain from an issue earlier who stood and watched as Batman escaped his trap, as impressed and pleased as he was disappointed and frustrated.

    The good news is that this issue packs in a lot more plot as Batman confronts the Guatamalen rebels, has a heart to heart with Vicki about Bruce Wayne, thwarts Joker's assassination attempt, bridges a level of understanding between the military dictatorship and rebellion that Joker sought to exploit, and pursues the Joker to a climactic battle.

    There are some significant developments in the side plots as well. Bullock stands up to Mayor Hill, refusing to do anything more against Gordan, Alfred gets some more back story on his daughter, Julia (though I felt this was skimmed through quickly and handled tactlessly--particularly the life-long adoptive father's note to her on the occasion of his death, which is terse, to the point, and merely seems to exist for the sake of furthering the exposition), and, of course, there's a major surprise development for Jason in this issue.

    Jason began the issue bored and alone at the mansion. Moench gave Jason a little more characterization through inner monologue here. I found his debate about whether or not to order a pizza out of boredom surprisingly real. Then he stumbled into Dick's bedroom and found something shocking in his closet (later revealed to be his Robin costume). Cool idea for a plot point, but why the heck would this be sitting in Dick's closet, especially when he doesn't even live there anymore? Surely he either needs it with the Titans or should at least leave it in the Batcave. Dick won't quit being Robin in the pages of the Titans for two more months, so that isn't the explanation.

    Anyway, at the climax of Batman's battle with the Joker, at which point the Joker has finally and completely lost it, so inexplicably rattled by losing control of his game against Batman that he's ready to murder him with a machine gun, Robin jumps in to save the day. This would have been a breath-taking surprise if it weren't for the poorly planned panel arrangements. The eye easily picks up Robin's primary colors against the dreary backdrop a page and a half before he enters. This should have been saved for the next page!

    Jason goes on to wipe the floor with Joker and then explains himself to Batman. He found enough cash in Bruce's drawer to buy a ticket to San Mateo, but how did he get there so fast?? It's still the same evening as when Jason first found the costume.

    Finally, Batman's major objection at the end of the issue is that Jason is wearing someone else's costume. It's a legitimate objection, but he seems far too upset about it. Whatever feelings underlie that objection, they've not been hinted at prior to this moment. Like the attraction with Nocturna, this is another time that Moench does not do anything to clue us in to the important feelings that are occurring beneath the cowl.

    All in all, this story had a lot of good ideas in it, but there were a lot of half considered moments, from Robin's timely arrival, to the Robin costume in the closet, and even the randomness of Joker finally being inexplicably freaked out by Batman's predictable ability to beat him when he was unusually aware of this ability just last issue. I guess Moench can't plot and write well in the same issue. Oh well.
    Last edited by shaxper; 11-24-2010 at 05:36 PM.

  14. #149
    Run Runner shaxper's Avatar
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    Detective Comics #533

    "Look to the Mountaintop"
    writer: Doug Moench
    art: Gene Colan and Bob Smith

    Grade: A-

    I know JKCarrier has been waiting on baited breath for this one ;)


    This was a very touching issue in which four former con-men (or had they escaped?) attempt to kill Commissioner Gordon while he lies in a coma at the hospital. The story employs "Look to the Mountaintop," an enigmatic piece of advice Gordon once gave to his daughter, Barbara, throughout the story. It's used as a metaphor for Barbara's struggle for excellence, Gordon's struggle to live, Batman's struggle to rescue Gordon, and even Bullock's struggle to understand and respect Gordon, the man he worked so hard to undermine.

    Essentially, the hit is made while Barbara is with her father, she manages to get him to the top floor and put in a call to police headquarters before being knocked out by gas, Bullock gets the news and sends in Batman (a huge indication of his progress as a character), and Batman gets Gordon to the roof, fighting off the attackers along with a now conscious Barbara, only to have Gordon revive himself at the end. A touching conclusion, to be sure.

    I give this issue an A- only because it could have been even better. Some issues I had with it:

    - I just can't see a younger James Gordon telling his distressed daughter "Look to the mountain top" and then walking away. He's a practical man, not an enigmatic mentor. The entire premise of the issue depends upon this fact, and I just don't see it. Maybe it would work if he confessed at the end that he read it in a fortune cookie or something? That he thought it was something Barbara would have wanted to hear? But it goes unexplained. It just seems out of character.

    - I think Bullock deserved more time in this issue. I would have loved to have seen him play a greater role in the story. We don't even see him talk to Batman. He fires up the signal, and suddenly Batman is at the hospital. Bullock is the most fascinating character in this story undergoing a tremendous transformation. I would have liked to have seen more of it.

    - I would have liked more of an ending. Yes, Gordon wakes up, but there's no time spent on that powerful reunion. I would have cut out some of the lengthy setup of the crime (3 pages of watching them prepare before it happens) and spent more time on this.

    - I don't buy the motivation for the killers. Criminals upset at having spent so long in jail probably won't be quick to commit a crime that's almost guaranteed to get them put away again and, even if they were, why take your frustration out on the police commissioner? Wouldn't the D.A. be a more likely target, or Batman, or the arresting officer, or the foreman of the jury, or your own crummy lawyer? Who even considers the police commissioner when they're sent to jail? When I saw the cover for this issue, I naturally assumed Mayor Hill had put the hit on Gordon and Bullock would be placed in the conflicting role of taking orders from Hill and having to choose to defy him. Wouldn't that have made for a more interesting and more believable premise?

    - Finally, the art was off in this issue. In one panel, a young and impressionable Barbara looking to her father for guidance has no eyeballs. In another, Jason Todd's face is at the height of Bruce's bellybutton. Even Gordon's features vary wildly from the second page to the third. It all looks very nice, and the panel arrangements are quite artistic, but the consistency isn't there at all in the beginning.

    So, all in all, it was a strong issue that could have been even stronger. I was moved, but I'm the kind of sappy guy who will cry at almost anything, and this issue didn't get a tear out of me. It could have with a little more effort.
    Last edited by shaxper; 11-22-2010 at 05:43 PM.

  15. #150
    Frugal fanboy Cei-U!'s Avatar
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    I hadn't noticed this until now, Shax (which is a sign of how much I'm enjoying your reviews), but FYI: James and Barbara's last name is Gordon.

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